It all started simply enough: a new restaurant in the south end of Ottawa, Taylor’s Wine and Food Bar, was welcoming a patron who was investigating the restaurant in advance of a birthday dinner for her sister. Then, Trieste Rathwell mentioned that the table of five would need a sixth seat for her three-month-old nephew in his car seat. That’s when Sylvia Taylor, co-owner of the restaurant, told her that small children were not welcome in the restaurant, prompting a brouhaha that has spilled out into Ottawa’s newspapers and radio waves.
On one side, you’ve got parents of young children who don’t want to be excluded from public places—and they’re willing to do things like file complaints with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, as Rathwell’s sister has. On the other side—represented here by radio host and Ottawa’s crankiest old man Lowell Green—you’ve got people without children who think that the restaurant has a right to maintain its own atmosphere, including controlling the age of people in a liquor-serving establishment.
The anti-kid forces seem to have focused specifically on the unwillingness of parents to hire babysitters for nights out, which may be fair in some cases but seems a bit much for new parents of a three-month-old. That said, by the time a kid is six and screaming about not wanting his peas to touch his chicken, they might have a point.
Of course, this debate could never happen here in Toronto. Oh, wait.
• Foodies chew over Ottawa restaurant’s baby ban [National Post]
• Baby causes birthday brouhaha [Ottawa Citizen]
• Many adults like child-unfriendly restaurant policy [National Post]
• Baby Wars [Toronto Life]
This is so sad… but let me tell you that before my life was enriched by my son, I probably would have joined the chorus here, and hated on babies at restos. However when dining at Pizzeria Libretto, with my 5 month old sound asleep in his carseat *under the table*, the woman at the table beside our group kept shooting him disdainful, sneering looks, and glaring at us. Her scowls made me feel very uncomfortable so even when our server glowingly commented on how great it was that we could eat out, it made me feel like we should be at home holed up like second-class citizens.
My partner and I don’t eat at chains, and we like fresh and local food. We’ve taken our baby to places by Jamie Kennedy and Lynn Crawford… and he has been excellent. As new parents, we need to retain some of our old lifestyle to stay sane.
A restaurant policy banning children smacks of AGEISM. How many people on this forum consider themselves ‘older’? Could I ask you how you would feel if there was a policy barring you from eating out? Maybe I have a trendy new restaurant and I only want people with a youthful look, so I’m going to ban everyone over 45, and suggest you go eat at the old folks home around the corner since they have salt-reduced, heart-friendly choices. Would you think I was being helpful??? I think you would be offended.
Stop drinking the haterade. Love life. Laugh a little.
July 14, 2010 at 10:16 am | by limabeanWell everybody, that is why my husband and I rarely eat out.Last time I took him out for his very expensive birthday dinner he had full view of a women breastfeeding her baby in the middle of a fine dining restaurant in Yorkville – yum how appetizing for us. Then we went to a Jazz brunch in Yorkville only to be subjected to 5 strollers that came in and sat right in front of us and the three piece jazz band. I could go on and on with similar stories and have given up. I hate eating out. As much as I love great food and personally collect wines I would rather have my own dinner party or cook. There are too many great choices now to have to be subjected to bad restaurant experiences.
July 15, 2010 at 6:05 am | by RoseI have to put up with enough screaming, hyperactive children running all over the place like everywhere is a playground. Why the hell shouldn’t I be able to choose to go to a bar or restaurant where that isn’t an issue? I’ve been in retail for years and it’s the best form of birth control on earth frankly. Dealing with other people’s kids (and the parents) all day everyday makes me turn around a leave a restaurant when I see it filled with them.
I can just stay home and have a nice quiet, relaxing meal if I can’t get one in a restaurant. The whole world doesn’t have to revolve around you and your kid after all, what about the rest of us? Oh, right…we’re the inferior types who just don’t know what we’re missing yet because we’re incomplete as people…or whatever condescending way we are putting it lately.
July 15, 2010 at 6:16 am | by LeanneThank God! When my kids were little we stayed at home or took them to McDonald’s. Now, I want to go out, spend my money and have a nice time, without screaming kids.
July 15, 2010 at 6:33 am | by March GregoroffThere is a time a place for everything. More restos should adopt this policy and put sticker in the window. I’ll spend my money there.
About time.
July 15, 2010 at 6:59 am | by CynthiaI had filled out a long, thought out and reasoned response, but your comment engine deleted it.
July 15, 2010 at 8:21 am | by AlectaI don’t think the parents are thinking about the kids…the dinner may run from 7 to 10 pm and that poor kid who should have been in bed at 8 pm (or earlier) is stuck sleepy, bored, and strapped into a seat when all s/he wants to do is run around or go to bed. Take your kids to swiss chalet or have dinner at home and save the little one the trauma. Early in life I took my kids to restaurants, but they don’t want to be there and I got worried that we may be disturbing patrons as well — I opted for taking them to a place they would like and then getting a babysitter when my husband and I wanted a nice dinner.
July 15, 2010 at 9:21 am | by dA couple of weeks ago, my girlfriend and I were dining at a sushi restaurant, and there was a family and their baby at the next table. Throughout the entire meal the tot would screech a loud, sharp screech every ten seconds. The kid had lungs–I could even hear her in the washrooms in the back. The mom tried to hush the baby from time to time, but when that didn’t work she got up, put the baby in her stroller and walked it up and down, up and down the aisle of the small restaurant. Not only was I shocked at the level of entitlement it took to claim the entire space of the restaurant for her child, but it piled annoyance upon annoyance because the kid still didn’t stop screaming. At least the annoying guy with the cellphone doesn’t parade himself all around the restaurant. I don’t know if parents with small kids should be banned outright from restaurants, but the self-absorption and lack of consideration for others that some parents display is appalling.
July 15, 2010 at 10:00 am | by HessI have to agree with Hess, and others who have commented already.
July 15, 2010 at 10:46 am | by anonI was at a restaurant in Little India not that long ago, and it seemed to be pretty family friendly place, but some parents who were dining let their kids run around and around and even climb on tables and walk around and jump on them.
How disgusting is that! Who would want to eat at a table that dirty shoes were on.
I think the reality is there are lots and lots of restaurants that are fine dining and allow kids, and one must just accept that certain establishments should be more adult oriented.
Its true a nice dining experience is good for kids to have, but there are limits, depending on the behaviour of the kids.
I love kids too, but an ill behaved child screaming and screaming is not fair to me when I’m trying to enjoy my meal, particularly if the parent of that child is lazy, or not able to control their kids.
Obviously not all parents are like this, but there are parents who are. How is the restaurant to know which parents have well behaved kids and which don’t?
As the mother of a squirmy, rambunctious toddler, I would never think to try and get him to sit through a long meal anywhere – and think that parents who do must be grasping at some sense of normalcy for what their lives use to be like before they had kids.
However, I also do not want to be relegated to chain restaurants and fast-food joints until my children aren’t children. I think the key here is that parents need to know what their kids can handle, and make plans accordingly. There are many parents I know that would very much like to school their children in respectful table manners – and trying to do so at “Swiss Chalet” or “East Side Mario’s” doesn’t exactly give them an opportunity to observe what that might look or sound like!
Let me also say – that in this particular case – it is not about being too cheap to pay for a babysitter. Most three-month-old infants need to be fed every 1.5 to 2 hours. So unless you know of a miracle fine-dining establishment to which you can arrive, get seated, get fed, and get back home within 90 minutes – leaving your breastfeeding infant at home is not an option.
When my son was an infant – he slept almost all the time. And yes, we did go out to eat. And no, he didn’t cry. Or if he did, we quickly picked him up to soothe him. Of course, we did this no matter where we were because we loved him and didn’t think that leaving an infant to cry was an acceptable parenting technique.
July 16, 2010 at 10:44 am | by WendyFor those that use the excuse of feedings to bring their brat – two words “breast pump” or as an alternative just stay home if the latter is not a viable option. On the subject of breast feeding, in my opinion it is NOT OK TO PULL OUT A TITTY ANYWHERE ANY TIME. I have had the misfortune to witness breast feedings in almost every conceivable inappropriate location, including a client who thought it was ok in my law office reception! The tired argument that it is ok because it is natural just doesn’t wash – so is intercourse and taking a shit, but I don’t recommend it in a restaurant or any other public place open to public view. PLEASE PEOPLE KEEP YOUR bodily functions and your offspring at home. With respect to the argument that we have to take our children to eat in restaurants, as how else will they be able to learn how to behave. The same answer applies – AT HOME, I cannot understand the logic of an argument that states that we must teach our children in public and subject that public to their protestations. I teach my dog not to have accidents at home on my carpet, not bring them to my friends homes to satisfy my pets need of a fully authenticated experience.
July 16, 2010 at 11:19 am | by T. DavisI am the mother of a 10 month old and we have taken our son to pretty much all kinds of restuarants. He never fussed or complained. If anything the attention he received was amazing from both the staff and the customers. I believe you should have the right to dine at any establishment with your child. As for the comments about children running around and shouting, I hold the parents responsible for this behaviour. I also get annoyed when I see a child running around in a restaurant and it’s a family establishment! Growing up if I ever tried to act up in a public place I got “the look”. You have to educate and teach your kids on how to behave in public places, at the end of the day you are the parent not the child!
July 18, 2010 at 11:05 pm | by MarcelaOn the other hand if I was going to a FORMAL elegant restaurant for dinner I would get a babysitter for the evening but these people went to a bar for pete sake. I agree that women who breastfeed should be more respectful of where they are and perhaps go to the car or if the restaraunt has a lounge area in the washrooms, I also don’t appreciate seeing someone whip out their breast while I’m trying to eat!
Really, restaurant patrons bringing children need to make sure their children are under control and not being a nuisance to others, and a restaurant owner should have the option of ejecting patrons whose children are causing problems for other paying customers, just as they would if an adult customer were being disruptive. That being said, I don’t believe restaurants should be allowed to simply ban all children out of hand, but rather be allowed to do so on a case-by-case basis: allow the parents of children who are well-behaved/babies that don’t cry incessantly to stay, but those with disruptive babies/children can be asked to leave. Those rules should be explicitly stated/explained to people who choose to bring babies/young children to such establishments.
Of course, there is also a quick fix to this situation, and that is to add exotic dancers to the menu.
/of course, that might just be my answer to everything
July 19, 2010 at 4:45 am | by KrantzstoneI agree with all of the posters who feel that children have no place in “nice” restaurants and I certainly won’t be bringing my toddlers to such restaurants until I’m sure that they are old enough to behave appropriately. That is less about other people than it is about my own enjoyment. How is it enjoyable to me to be worrying about whether I’m going to have enough time to enjoy my meal before the child gets bored and we need to leave?
Part of what underlies the belief of those who insist on taking their children to “adult” establishments is that they aren’t mature enough to recognize that life changes after you have children and you can’t continue to do the same things you did before.
However, there is a line to be drawn in terms of age. Typically, a 3-month old infant is unlikely to cause much ruckus, as opposed to a 2 or 3 year old toddler with the attention span of a gnat who should not be expected to “behave” for a two or three hour dinner at a nice restaurant, as opposed to an 8-year old who has been taught to sit at the dinner table and can read, colour, or do some other appropriate activity at the table to tide him or herself over until the meal is done.
I think the real problem with this particular case is the parents’ expectation that a child who will have zero economic benefit to the restaurant should have his or her own seat. Depending on the configuration of the tables, the baby could in fact be costing the restaurant money (yes, assuming that the restaurant is full booked and demand for tables exceeds supply. No need to add your comment that the family who is now not booking its party at this restaurant has resulted in a loss of business). Isn’t that what this issue is about, really? Why should I have the right to expect that the restaurant will provide a seat to my child that could otherwise be given to a paying customer?
July 19, 2010 at 4:53 pm | by skt. davis’ comment should be removed. it is repugnant.
September 8, 2010 at 4:05 pm | by request