Amelia October 23, 2007 at 7:56 p.m.

Life sentence for black recommended to help him
develop his new career undisturbed as a writer.

Lit 200 October 23, 2007 at 8:18 p.m.

After nothing for so long, a flood of information over two days from Doug Bell.

Black's character is undiminished. His detractors in this blog seem silly and inconsequential in comparison.

wave99 October 23, 2007 at 10:15 p.m.

Which came first Judge St Eve's sentencing insanity or the US "justice" system sentencing guideline insanity ?

Either way you cut it, it is just nuts.

samatha carters October 23, 2007 at 10:26 p.m.

When a homeless in Toronto steals a loaf of bread because she is hungry, the police takes her to jail. When the lord stole two and half million from employee pensions and small shareholders savings, he gets a job as a columnist in the national post in canada. Thank god that in the USA there is real justice and lord felon is to get 30 years in the big house.

Kitty Chan Ho October 23, 2007 at 10:38 p.m.

Judge st eve sentencing of the convicted felon is going to be extremely severe because the felon's conduct during the summer has been an insult and mockery of the USA justice system. Americans are very patriotic and do not appreciate a foreign felon to laugh at them. Judging from today's piece on this blog, the lord is to get 28 years in a US jail cleaning toilets. There is not going to be much time to write his auto-boigraphy

leaf October 23, 2007 at 10:40 p.m.

roger, get your lawyer. i'm about to accuse you of using false id in a chatroom.
that samatha sounds a lot like you, always bringing back the employee pensions, the widows, the stolen exams etc...

and you know what? if the homeless stole a loaf of bread, maybe she wanted to go to jail. it's getting chilly...

Stephani Louise Underhouse October 23, 2007 at 10:50 p.m.

Experts in the Chicago appeal court claim that the chances of felon conrad black to succeed are nil. The weakness of the case at appeal is going to force the judge to jail felon black on november 30th at the sentencing to 35 years in jail. The appeal judges are old-farts in knowing the criminal mind, and although short sighted, they are not blind. The video about the removal of the boxes speaks for itself. Only this felon living in an another universe can't see that.

leaf October 23, 2007 at 11:07 p.m.

samatha, kitty, stephani: the call girls are using roger's computer while they forced him to take a bath.

Lit 200 October 23, 2007 at 11:21 p.m.

My character is undeminished in as much as arrogance, greedy, thief, and felon. But I suspect that in the correctional institution after five or so years my character is gonna become a vegetable.

ROGER October 23, 2007 at 11:28 p.m.

LEAF IS SHOWING HIS MALE CHAUVINIST SIDE AGAIN.
LEAF, STOP PUTTING WOMEN DOWN!

Samantha, good post, but Lord Black tried to rip off close to $30 million from the Dominion Store employees' pension
fund--a court ruled he had to return it. Do you mean the interest amount?

ROGER October 23, 2007 at 11:32 p.m.

HOW COME BELL DID NOT COMMENT ON THOSE TWO OTHER CASES BEFORE JUDGE ST EVE--I posted on them some months ago on this blog? Better late than never, I guess.

I still think Black will get a minimum of 13 years and more likely around 15 years in jail with Black, Boultbee, Atkinson jointly and severally liable for fines of $17 million or so and Black with an additional penalty of around $1 million.

I don't hear much about the prospect of a successful appeal anymore. I guess reality has sunk in at the mansion.

Toronto lawyer October 23, 2007 at 11:57 p.m.

leaf October 23, 2007 at 9:33 p.m.

Toronna lawyer, thanks for the warning. I think it is superfluous though. you see, in order to be defamed, there needs to be an actual victim, identified by name, as in Conrad Black.
I’m afraid ‘roger’ doesn’t qualify.

Then, as I have stated several times, simply continue to defame and libel Roger and others on this blog because, according to your thought process and questionable legal analysis, you are within your rights to do so. I am sure you know what you are doing - that you have thoroughly researched these legal parameters. I stand by my assessments. You are treading in serious legal waters when you engage in the defamation of others publicly.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at midnight

THE ONLY THING LEFT FOR BLACK DIE-HARDS TO DO IS SABOTAGE THE BLOG WITH THEIR PHONY POSTS AND DIVERSIONS

If Black wishes to sue, or Amiel or any of the other scoundrels I have criticized here, they can easily find me. On the other hand, if Breeden wishes to sue those who have viciously attacked his sterling reputation here, he too can easily find them. If Black wishes to sue, he will first proceed against Tom Bower. If he cannot nail a libel lawsuit in the UK against Bower, then he cannot do so against me in Canada. All of this is of course not germane to the central issue--Black's guilt and near miss on the racketeering. But in the end, it does not matter. A single conviction is all that was required. There are 4. Black might survive prison, but his life is over. From where he is going, for as long as he is going, at his age, there is no come-back.

I do merely point out the obvious--American jails are hell. They are meant to be. Americans view jails as places of severe punishment and suffering. They view prison rape of male prisoners part of "doing hard time". They believe, along with the vast majority of their prison guards, that rape breaks prisoners in and makes them easier to manage. Prison guards will often purposely place prisoners together in cells where they have every reason to expect that violent sexual assaults will occur. The absence of lawsuits for failure to provide a safe prison environment and fulfil a minimal standard of duty of care is evidence that the American system uses extra-judicial prison assaults as a sanctioned punishment and social control means in the jails. People optimistically say that Black is immune because of his age. They are wrong. Prison rape is not about lust or appearances or desirability. Prison rape is like other instances of rape, it is about power and control and domination and subjugation. Black is at very great risk for being a victim because he represents all that an inmate might well wish to tear down and subjugate. Black supporters mistake description for prescription because they are poorly educated people of limited intellect. They will of course have no understanding of what is meant by prescription and description--it might as well be written in Arabic for all the understanding they have of these English words. An uneducated mind is such a terrible waste and easy prey to Black, Amiel and Steyn.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 12:03 a.m.

Don't be a dolt Donna. You can't harm a person's reputation if the person is using a fake name. Silly wabbit.

leaf October 24, 2007 at 12:04 a.m.

Me, a male chauvinist?!!! Come again, roger.
I hope BBC won’t interpret this as racist, but muslims aren’t exactly known for women’s lib.
You can call me anything you want roger but you need to back it up. Out of nowhere insults are meaningless.
Now on what basis do you call me a male chauvinist?

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 12:10 a.m.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/23102007/3/ca...

Next thing, these folks will be added to the oyster-shucking Vietnamese folks. No one has a monopoly on scam artists. Take Black for example.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 12:15 a.m.

DIDN'T LEAF POST THAT CANADA HAS HAD AN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER? DIDN'T HE HAVE TO ADMIT HE WAS TOTALLY IGNORANT OF CANADIAN POLITICAL HISTORY AND REALITY? See, millions of Muslims have elected women to lead governments, but Leaf has never successfully voted for a woman to be prime minister of Canada. Now Leaf is making male sexist chauvinistic posts about women and he is too ignorant to even understand that he has done so! LOL! I guess that is his defence--ignorance.

As for hygiene, to Leaf all people of colour are unclean. Leaf burns crosses for fun on the front lawns of his neighbours. That's just how Leaf is.

Toronto lawyer October 24, 2007 at 12:21 a.m.

Leaf

I return to my original posting on this blog - sooner or later you will be located and identified - the days of total, internet anonymity are long gone. That you actually believe that you can go online and defame / libel others at whim because you think that such defamations are supposedly directed at " fake id's ", emphasizes how little legal knowledge you possess.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 12:22 a.m.

THE REAL SOURCE OF GRIEF FOR BLACK SUPPORTERS?

The security guard at 10 Toronto Street, site of the obstruction crime scene, was named .... Yousuf. LOL! Mark Steyn blew a blood vessel when he found out! LOL! Yousuf was just trying to do his job--if Yousuf had done a better job, Lord Black would never have taken those boxes out and would have been spared the agony. So, Yousuf is hated by the Black crowd, and by extension, well, you all read about the Vietnamese--that is the level of intellect one is dealing with here. Sad, but true.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 12:43 a.m.

AS PER W101'S EXCELLENT POST ON PRISON NUTRITION, Black is going to a hell hole. Of course he can buy supplementary food supplies inside the prison. He could probably buy some better clothes. But imagine the attention that will attract. Not good.

Prisons are not healthy places, quite apart from the violence. The prisons are full of drugs, including intravenous drugs. Because of the abstinence mindset that denies there are drugs in prison, or that insists there ought not to be drugs in prison, there are no safe needle programs in prison, no sterile technique possible without disinfectants. So, needles are shared in a population rife with hep B, hep C and HIV. Even with consensual sex, there are no condoms. Coupled with the intravenous drugs, the sex leads to rapid spread of infectious diseases. TB is another major problem and can be spread by aerosol coughing and sneezing. Black is healthier than most in US jails, especially those in his age cohort, but he is overweight, unfit and probably has chronic diseases. Prison is going to be hard on him. But he can survive the physical. It is the mental challenges, the emotional-psychological challenge that will destroy him. He will be silenced in prison. Within a few months, he will be broken mentally. Once the appeals fail, he will be desperate. Supports are important. A lot depends on what Amiel does. At least Shirley and the kids will be there for him. But if and when Amiel cuts and runs, Black's last psychological defence will be breached.

leaf October 24, 2007 at 12:52 a.m.

Toronna lawyer,

In no way do I think that anyone posting on the internet is untraceable. It is a bit tedious to do so and proper authorizations are required to have access to that information. Needless to say, valid reasons must be expressed and proven to obtain that ‘search warrant’.

For you to think that a defamation and libel suit can be brought against me for defaming ‘roger’ is laughable, preposterous and ridiculous.

You’re gonna have to think of something else to succeed in shutting me up.

For the record October 24, 2007 at 12:56 a.m.

To the so-called Toronto lawyer (probably Donna in disguise): It's obvious you're a fake as what you claim doesn't fit what the law says: http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/L/9...

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 1 a.m.

AT VARIOUS TIMES, IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED (AND EVEN TRIED IN SOME PLACES) THAT PRISONS OUGHT TO BE CO-ED

When males get together in a group, it is not healthy. Probably the same when all women get together to the exclusion of males for years at a time. But men are particularly pathological in all-male environments, whether boarding schools, the military or prison. There is the myth of the lone, ruggard male, the Marlboro man type, but it is a myth. Loners are easy prey and targets. Most quickly join gangs, cliques, cabals, clubs. Then they stake out turf and fight to defend their territory, even and especially in jails. Which gang will Black join? Who will have him? How long could he survive as a loner? Gangs are always on the look-out for loners to subjugate into what is deemed to be a feminine role. Such individuals are viewed as property of the gang and might even be forced into prostitution or sold to other gangs in human trafficking. Prisons are sordid places of debauchery. We have made them so. Americans have made them so. Perhaps Maclean's will do a series on prison life?

leaf October 24, 2007 at 1:04 a.m.

hey roger, mister know-it-all, tell us about pablo escobar jail cell. euh, jail condo i mean.
you watch too many movies and read too much pulp fiction. CB will have nothing to fear, will eat well, will get whatever he needs.
money talks, BS walks.
hope that you never go to jail roghead because you'll be doing a lot of walking.

i'm still waiting for you to justify your accusations of male chauvinist, mister BS.

leaf October 24, 2007 at 1:14 a.m.

and before you say it roghead, i know pablo is dead.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 1:14 a.m.

SOMEONE POSTED ABOUT THE SMELL OF JAILS

Yes, especially in the older prisons and those built in the 1960s and 1970s. But it is also the constant noise, the lights, institutional. Goffman described places like that as "total institutions", like sanitariums, mental asylums of a by-gone era, or military and boarding schools, convents etc. One cannot compartmentalize one's life--the private cannot be separated from the public sphere, and it leads to an internalization of an institutional mentality. Black has never been capable of being disciplined in his life. For all his talk of soldiering, he does not understand the discipline it takes to be part of something bigger than himself. He lacks discipline. He would have made a loust soldier. He will make a lousy prisoner.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 1:19 a.m.

BUT ALL ORGANIZATIONS HAVE WAYS OF DEALING WITH UNDISCIPLINED MEMBERS

They break them in. Just as recruits are broken in at boot camp, with drill sargeants who scream at them, insult them, force them to do exhausting physical exercises and generally mess with their minds, so do other total institutions. Black will be broken in. It is not pleasant to watch.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 1:37 a.m.

ONCE BLACK HAS BEEN BROKEN, IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW LONG OR SHORT HIS STAY IN PRISON

Like a lobotomized mental patient, total institutions can do permanent damage to inmates from which there is no recovery.

What is the duty of care owed by society and government to the inmates? If the judiciary does not care, who will?

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 1:48 a.m.

CAPITALISM'S REVENGE ON BLACK

Yes, prison is like a capitalist robber baron jungle. Black might find himself the object of trade. He might be taken by a gang and sold to another gang! A terribly sordid business these jails. Aristocrats are not safe in them.

Whether Black is in for 5 years or 15 years, he is no longer the type of person anyone would want to be seen dead with, least of all the snobbish types he tried to cultivate in the past!

Toronto lawyer October 24, 2007 at 1:58 a.m.

You’re gonna have to think of something else to succeed in shutting me up.

No one is trying to shut you up - on the contrary. Keep posting. And while you're at it, For the record can give you legal advice too. Too bad that For the record has no understanding or knowledge of libel laws. Maybe when the time comes, For the record can defend you as well.

leaf October 24, 2007 at 2:03 a.m.

roger, you know what inspires me to find more junk from you?

YOU!

leaf October 24, 2007 at 2:11 a.m.

toronna lawyer

i'm not through this whole blog yet but so far, your allegation is the dumbest thing i've read. believe me, when you've read as much 'donna' as i have, that's saying something!

Lit 200 October 24, 2007 at 5:10 a.m.

Roger, you used to irritate me but now, after this latest string of visceral messages, I am beginning to feel the stirrings of pity. Conrad Black may well go to prison and he may suffer but his native intelligence, his strength of character, will see him through and he will make good use of his time, whatever his circumstances.

The same cannot be said for you. You are already in a prison more confining than Black will ever experience and I don't think you will ever get out, not without years of therapy.

You too are intelligent (although not nearly as intelligent as you think you are, and certainly not any match for Conrad Black) you can cobble together the semblance of intelligent discourse but it always breaks down, when you are pressed, into something akin to gibberish. You are of the type that likes to see your opponents suffer. You would make a good torturor. You don't want to just win, you want to smash your opponents, want them to grovel.

To accomplish that purpose you will attribute evil intent to your opponents without restraint, beyond reasonable discourse, beyond reason.

I have seen only one post with a glimmering of humanist appeal, when you longed for the sea, the mountains and the desert. And yet you, a man of vast accomplishment, stay in a city you hate, in a country you dislike (where, for instance they ALLOW felons to write newspaper articles!) and yet you stay and you spend hours and hours in this inconsequential blog, giving vent to your hates.

You are the perfect mirror-image of the Conrad Black that you have tried to create here in this blog. In fact, you ARE that manufactured Conrad Black and you hate yourself. Your self-hatred is becoming more and more evident, more and more unrestrained, as anyone can clearly see from the rising crescendo of sick desire for punishment in your messages.

Roger, seek help.

Lit 200 October 24, 2007 at 5:19 a.m.

Every time you write such things about Black, I know you are actually writing them about your conception of yourself.

That's the puzzle inside the enigma of Roger.

n. o. p. singh October 24, 2007 at 6:27 a.m.

The national post loses $15M each year since its inception.
Why is it printed? Who pays for the loses? Why has asper hired the lord as a columnist when he is disliked by 99% of the readers? The answer must be that the post is an instrument of propaganda for some powerful lobby group to brainwash the canadian public.

Bob S, not Bob C October 24, 2007 at 6:43 a.m.

Lit 200:

Pleasantly expressed, yet accurate analysis of Roger.

I too find Roger an interesting individual. He is one of the few people on this site who have put forward thought-provoking posts that have made me stand back and reconsider many of my social and political positions and for that I thank him. In fact, he's one of the reasons why I return to it regularly (causing Mrs S to shake her head when I do).

On the subject of the US prison regime, I too think he exaggerates. Sixty-something gentlemen are not, by and large, high on the wish list of other males seeking gratification. From what I know of the general subject of prisoner popularity (ie quite a bit about the admittedly more liberal UK system), white-collar fraud convicts have other attractions that make them sought after.

First, they are good at expressing themselves on paper, a skill that is usually sadly lacking among their contemporaries. They often step in to advise and help with those contemporaries’ outside communications.

Secondly, their financial knowledge is in great demand because most inmates haven't the faintest idea how the commercial and financial world operates and wish to learn (probably for dubious future purposes). They often end up conducting business acumen classes and advising on family and taxation problems.

Lastly, as Roger says, power is what people want and money, artfully used, is a good source of that commodity. If Black has any money left (and I've no doubt he will have), he'll use his manipulative skills to make sure that some of it goes to those in a position to place a protective screen around him, be they the guards or the rougher, tougher fellow inmates. Probably both.

Coyne October 24, 2007 at 6:57 a.m.

Of course, the national post is part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. Everybody knows that.

Some describe the Post as "an instrument of propaganda for some powerful lobby group to brainwash the canadian public.""

Others might say the newspaper is "one small counterweight to the huge and unremitting liberal stance of almost all other newspapers who are daily brainwashing the Canadian public."

Lit 200 October 24, 2007 at 7:28 a.m.

I am doing something I accused Roger of: spending an inordinate amount of time on this blog, which is much like eating smoked ooligans: three is never enough.

I agree with your take Bob S, on Black and his likely stint in a US prison. It will be a bad shock for him but I think he is more likely to weather it than other high fliers brought low. Incidentally, I hope you continue to drop in every once in awhile. You have common sense, a rare commodity.

By his actions and words since his convictions, Black has proved himself to have admirable traits: honesty, a penchant for self deprecation, humor, sang-froid and an enviable ability to keep busy at useful things under extraordinary pressure. Perhaps he weeps at night and calls upon the support of his wife, who knows? But when morning comes, Black is back. Roger and his pack of peep-peeps are waiting for Black to crack. I don't believe he will.

Frankly, I think Black has gone too far in commenting about the particulars of his trial (defending himself publicly and explaining his actions on the charge of obstruction - I'm sure Andrew Frey did not approve of that and I can almost hear him saying: "Çonrad! Shut the fuxk UP!"). While I have defended him here more as a devil's advocate than because I respected him, I am growing to admire his personal strengths more and more as time goes on.

In any case, the show in Chicago is a fascinating play and I am enjoying every act!

norma chi wak on October 24, 2007 at 9:35 a.m.

It is interesting how we are different. I was an admirer of the felon. When he was attacked, I supported him with emails and i was amazed that he replied to them. However, my experience in life has been one that when I made a mistake,I recognized my error and repayed the damage. This takes courage and it is learned only by experience. This is why now i think highly of radler the "rat". On the other hand, the felon's character is a disgrace, he refuses to accept responsibility and hides behind lawyers that in the past have served him well. This behavior is that of a coward. He knows he is guilty and refuses to testify under oath. An innocent man would never do that. There is a reality independent of our own. The reality of a jury's
veredict. Follow the money and the loot went to his bank account.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 10:25 a.m.

"In any case, the show in Chicago is a fascinating play and I am enjoying every act!"
----

A truly sick and juvenile individual. It's not a play moron.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 10:38 a.m.

Conrad Black:""I knew nothing of any official interest in the famous 13 boxes, had nothing to do with selecting their contents. I did not alter or even examine the boxes when they were in my house. Doubtless, this could have been better explained."

---

LOL! Liar liar, pants on fire!

sandra issacson mayergold October 24, 2007 at 10:47 a.m.

If the boxes conatained nothing of any value, why did you
retrieved them yourself after hours?
On the other hand, your Warhol paintings were of some value,
yet you left them in the office?
Your story doesn't add up, nor do the non-competes.

dr October 24, 2007 at 11:02 a.m.

Funniest comment of 2007!

"Conrad Black may well go to prison and he may suffer but his native intelligence, his strength of character, will see him through and he will make good use of his time, whatever his circumstances."

Marilyn October 24, 2007 at 11:44 a.m.

Regarding the discussion here about blogging and libel, I refer those interested in the subject to the following article:http://www.dba-oracle.com/oracle_news/2005_9_1_liable_blog_comments.htm

Trevor Burgess October 24, 2007 at 12:12 p.m.

If the boxes conatained nothing of any value, why did you
retrieved them yourself after hours?
On the other hand, your Warhol paintings were of some value,
yet you left them in the office?
Your story doesn't add up, nor do the non-competes.

Donna,
Did you see in the video? how many cars were in the parking lot while they were removing the boxes? answer: 15 cars, were Hollinger employees so dedicated that they all worked 'after hours' on Fridays?
further donna, The Warhol paintings whick Black commissioned with his own money were a little cumbersome to fit in a Cadilac. What claim does the new regime at Hollinger have to Conrad Black's portraits. Further what value have they added to shareholders?

haithabu October 24, 2007 at 12:18 p.m.

Lit 200:
"Frankly, I think Black has gone too far in commenting about the particulars of his trial (defending himself publicly...)"

I get the impression that for Black it's about his reputation even more than it's about his freedom. It's the court of public opinion which he cares most about. That's why he can't resist commenting publicly even though he's intelligent enough to know that it's not in his interest. I suspect that he would gladly do some jail time (within reasonable limits of course - everything in moderation) if he only knew there would be exoneration at the end of it.

I personally wish Black the best. I respect his inner strength which is all too rare in our society. CB may be a convicted felon, and Roger fully submitted to the rule of law, but I know which one I would rather have with me in a tight situation.

Strangely enough, I think Roger respects this aspect of Black's personality too, though he would never admit it. Roge is one conflicted dude. He blames Conrad for the crimes of neoconism, fraud, fiduciary delinquence, etc., but if you listen closely to his rants, the underlying theme is contempt for what he views as Black's weakness at 2 critical points: relinquishing control of Hollinger and declining to testify at his trial. He blames Black more for his downfall that for any action leading up to it. In that I suspect that he is a true child of his culture, which views strength as a paramount virtue.

At the same time, Roger's critique of Black's supposed weakness reflects conflicting feelings towards his own decision to withdraw from the society he grew up in rather than to become enmeshed in its conflicts. He knows that it was the wiser choice, but he also knows perfectly well that in his culture's terms it was regarded as a sign of abdication or weakness...and that culture is still a part of him. Roger's exile is more than physical. I wish Roger the best, too, when it comes to it.

CB October 24, 2007 at 12:25 p.m.

"If the boxes conatained nothing of any value, why did you
retrieved them yourself after hours?"

Why not? They were personal items, real estate docs, family photographs etc. The items, packed by my secretary, had a personal or sentimental value, but no intrinsic value.

"On the other hand, your Warhol paintings were of some value,
yet you left them in the office?"

Precisely because the paintings DID have intrinsic value and I thought it would be improper to take them, under the terms of the court order handed down. As I've said, I knew nothing of the SEC order when I retrieved my personal gear.

"Your story doesn't add up, nor do the non-competes."

Actually, it does add up. and so do the non-competition agreements and payments for same. I am sorry you don't agree.

me October 24, 2007 at 1:06 p.m.

sandra issacson mayergold October 24, 2007 at 10:47 a.m.

If the boxes conatained nothing of any value, why did you
retrieved them yourself after hours?
On the other hand, your Warhol paintings were of some value,
yet you left them in the office?
Your story doesn't add up, nor do the non-competes.

To date, the above post is the most intelligent and significantly insightful opinion that I have heard or read anywhere. Excellent go at it, Sandra. And commendable.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 1:07 p.m.

"I respect his inner strength which is all too rare in our society."
-----

LOL! Black can't help mouthing off because he's a spoiled brat with no self-discipline, much less inner strength.

me October 24, 2007 at 1:15 p.m.

cb

except for the fact that no one believes you, especially the prosecutors and the jurors at your trial. Why don't they believe you? I guess because you have proved that you are a liar.....?

Prudence Lendighshire Olavsen October 24, 2007 at 1:19 p.m.

Don't be sorry for the bloggers disgreemnt. They don't count now, they are worms. At this point in time you received four months to reflect on your deeds from the wise trial judge. Get on your knees and recognize your mistakes man. You are a human being and we all make mistakes. In the past you managed to get away with things, just like O.J.. Now for both of you one of your accomplises turned on you, the rat in your case and two golf partners in OJ case. Face the fact man. You are going to jail, negociate to make it as short as possible. As an old man with little life left repent and get peace.

haithabu October 24, 2007 at 1:20 p.m.

Speak for yourself, W101.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 1:24 p.m.

W101: agree with your take on Black's mouthing off. He's a loose cannon. So is Barbara Amiel with her "My extravagance knows no bounds" comment in Vanity Fair and her article about how Radler broke the sacred "code of honour among thieves" in Macleans Magazine.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 1:57 p.m.

Haithabu, Lit.

You both have very profund takes on Roger. I agree. Perhaps 2 months back I wrote along the same lines.

I recall early on when Roger first joined this merry blog, how he spoke in terms of some violence being justified.

What struck me at the time, was not whether infact we could logically or emotionally deduce that violebce can be justified, but how his words seemed more directed at a particular group that he wanted to be more in unison with.

It seemed that he was being rejected despite his apparant solidarity espoused by his writings here.

It's to Roger's credit though, that he has the ability to convey such subtle, and sad, juxtapostion in his wordings.

He does not appear to believe what he writes in many cases. This might be why when he is challenged in debate, he retreats into a defense that disobeys his intelligence and otherwise sense of logic.

Much like an inner child resorting to anger and name calling when brought to task. Roger,I believe guys, just wants to belong.

And maybe we should be a bit kinder in our replies to him. In attempting to show him that he is welcome to communicate his honest feelings, wemight relieve him of his defensiveness and reactionary behaviour.

We might even learn that he does indeed respect Black's intelligence. It would not surprise me.

Obviously, we are not in his social circle. It is hard at this point to imagine he has allowed himself to develop one.

But perhaps the anonimity of this blog can be worked to his advantage in allowing himself to be less defensive.

I do think Roger wants be simply be part of a group. Perhaps to some extent almost any group.

It's not easy to invite someone who has been rude and incapable to this point in debating honestly, into our living rooms.

I recall stating early on while kost here were beating Roger up verbally, that he was entertaining and interesting. Those are positives to build upon.

We should try.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 3:07 p.m.

Wave 99: When you write about Roger in his role as immigrant, you sound as condescending as Conrad Black sounded when he talked about today's Canada. Gee, do you think Roger [the well educated one] will ever be accepted by the Big Kids? Do you think Canada [the best country in the world] will ever be accepted by the Important Countries?

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 3:12 p.m.

Wave99 said about Roger:

"He does not appear to believe what he writes in many cases."

I see the opposite, he speaks with great conviction. The only reason I ever challenged him was when he used all CAPS in his postings.

Making false statements in a pompous voice doesn't make them true wave99. I think you will come to learn this, as has Conrad Black.

Buck October 24, 2007 at 3:33 p.m.

Black was in the wrong place at the wrong time, the link below proves it:

http://pcapostate.blogspot.com/2007/10/a...

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 4:04 p.m.

THE MISTAKE SOMETIMES MADE IN COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS IS TO ASSUME GREATER SIMILARITY THAN ACTUALLY EXISTS

The English-speaker from the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and other parts of the Commonwealth might be tempted to make assumptions that there are greater similarities between English speakers and their societies than actually may be the case. Some years ago, the then prime minister of Singapore lamented the disappearance of that common frame of reference, which he assumed existed. Lee Kuan Yew is himself an interesting character with a checkered past. But Yew made a big and probably ill-founded assumption of similarity. In the same manner, an Englishman might assume that American jails have some close resemblance to a British prison. That, sadly, is not the case. Canada and the USA have much in common, but the divergence between the two countries is stark and unmistakeable to both Americans and Canadians. British is in the European orbit to a greater extent than many Britons realize. Though there is a streak of JS Mill philosophical liberalism in the UK to a greater extent than elsewhere in Europe, the UK is still at base a society of conservatism and socialism, both of which ideologies converge around collective interests, though from different perspectives. America is philosophically a liberal or neoliberal extremist revolutionary state in a constant state of revolution and upheaval. There is no slow organic change with consensus in America. Rather, it is a place of rapid upheaval and extreme changes. The terminology is completely stood on its head, which muddies the waters for any meaningful discourse outside of academia. But there is one commonality in the English language countries which does stem from a certain point in British history--the disdain for intellectual pursuits, the disdain for poetry, the belief in liberalism which never took root in England itself, but which England none-the-less exported to the colonies. Of course France, the Netherlands, Portugal, Belgium and the other big European colonial powers did the same thing too, but we are concerned here with England.

Take a simple idea--law. In South Africa and Sri Lanka and Indonesia and other Dutch colonies, the law was called Roman-Dutch Law, and still exists in many places right until today, but this form of law never existed in the Netherlands itself.

So, when looking at America, or any other place, yes, there are things which might look familiar, and might be familiar, but the differences can be dramatic, in large part because of differing historical events and perceptions, the ongoing narrative of who and what the nation is, because of geography, because of political ideology and prevailing ideologies and cultures. American jails are not Her Majesty's prisons! And within any given system, there is large variation. If Black were American, he would go to Club Fed, not the jails for Joe Blow America.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 4:19 p.m.

WAVE99 AND HAITHABU CARRY THE LINGERING BITTERNESS AND HURT FROM BEING ON THE LOSING END of our encounters in debate. At regular intervals, the seek to salve their psychic wounds by making posts which they hope will hit some target, like a desperate soldier firing bullets into the pitch darkness, hoping to scare or hurt anything, anyone. Consider this, they are on home turf. Imagine if they had to play an away game in the territory of their opponents where the audience might be partisanly predisposed to my points of view more than to theirs.

This is the dilemma Black, Amiel, Steyn and their side faces. They cannot win on home turf and have already lost everywhere else they have gone. I have engaged in open debate from Canada to America to Western Europe to Africa to Asia and back. I have lived, worked and studied on 4 continents. There are millions of people like me. We are mobile and cosmopolitan and can function across cultures, languages and legal frameworks and economic systems. Our debate is informed by the world, not the parochial experience of our native villages alone. Wave99 is Leaf, a person of limited intellect who cannot keep up. Haithabu is a different person from Leaf, to be sure, but Haithabu too feels the loss of his cultural references. He is nostalgic for a world he sees as disappearing and he wishes to hang onto the familiar. To him, Black is a familiar icon of past glories and a way of life --kind of like a left over Harold Ballard. They miss the Canada of their youth, just as there are Australians and Britons who miss the simpler times (or so it seems in their rosy coloured reminiscences) and want to go back, but there is no back to go to. The past is indeed a foreign country, to quote the title of a book on historiography and its discontents.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 4:38 p.m.

AN INTERESTING THING HAPPENED A FEW MONTHS AGO IN AN AUSTRALIAN GAOL

The government moved prisoners from one gaol to varius other prisons. The problem is that they had imprisoned a Muslim man in a gaol and he quickly started gaining a following inside the prison, with Australian prisoners converting to Islam and following his lead, presenting a problem for the authorities. That is what one can call leadership! It is the kind of thing a Napoleon could pull off. It is not something Black can do.

In jail in apartheid era S Africa, Mandela was still a leader, and all the inmates on Robben Island knew it. Mahatma Gandhi was still a leader, even though he was interned by the British.

It takes personal courage and fortitude to stand up an be counted, when it really matters. Black failed that test of courage when he refused to testify before St Eve's court. Black failed when he refused to admit he was wrong and guilty. Black failed as a leader when he stole from his shareholders--they had invested in good faith in a company he managed and he had betrayed their trust in a devious, sly and underhanded manner, like a common thief. Black is no Al Capone--Black never had the gonads for that. Black is no Michael Milliken--he was not smart enough for that. Black is no Bernie Ebbers--Black is too small time a crook to be in that league. Black is a small man, a boy really, who never grew up. He never ever had any followers--only bought accomplices. He had to buy invitations and buy guests to Amiel's birthday parties and buy everything else. His first wife knew that only too well and left him because of it.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 4:57 p.m.

Barbara.

My family are first generation immigrants so, frankly, I don't know what the heck you are trying to get at with that one.

I love what Canada is, but I also believe despite Canada's greatness...Canada itself has come across as arrogant due largely to a national sense of insecurity compared ( by ourselves ) to our southern neighbour.

You could see, feel and taste that every Canada Day. Media would always set the tone in asking questions of Canadians on that day.

ie: What makes Canada special compared to the US ?

And Canadians would often answer any Canada related question with comparisons to the US.

That is a simple reality.

So, being a proud Canadian, I am or will be happy when Canada no longer needs to define itself by what we are not ( ie : compared to the US ), BUT RATHER WITH WHOM WE ARE.

A PRETTY DECENT LAND. NOT PERFECT. MANY FLAWS INFACT. BUT JUST ABOUT AS GOOD AS PLANET EARTH HAS TO OFFER AT THE MOMENT.

So, I am pleased that Black has shifted gears on this subject and it reflects much of my own view. Is that a crime Barbara ?

With regards to a Roger9Canada comparison, it is fair based on one great issue. Insecurity.

Like Canada past, Roger present is extremely insecure in his opinions when challenged.

In debate against reasonable and logical minds...more importantly with those who know the facts on an issue, his insecurities surface and he reliably takes an attacking position.

We , within this blog context, historically see a smoke screen of insult rather than dealing with the issues.

What we are trying to get at in reaching out to Roger is this. We don't dislike him. We know he can be quite intelligent to a point.

We just don't want him to feel insecure either about who he is or what he truly believes.

I'd rather know the real Roger than this pretend intellectual. Warts and all.

Barbara, if you re-read the notes from the 3 of us, you will see we are actually wanting to find common ground with Roger, but recognize it is only likely to occur with his putting down his defensiveness.

I would like to say that without being called a bigot, as I have actually no idea what or whom Roger is. He exaggerates greatly.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 5:06 p.m.

Roger: "It takes personal courage and fortitude to stand up and be counted"
---
Black is a spineless bloviating coward, you can't shut the blowhard up, but given the opportunity to defend himself in public, he slinks away in guilty silence.

The loser doesn't even make the crooked A-list:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Business/FunMo...

Lit 200 October 24, 2007 at 5:25 p.m.

As I say... Roger from the cellblock of his mind has created a bogeyman called Black. He has many miles to go before he can see the truth of Charlie Brown's observation: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

"It takes personal courage and fortitude to stand up and be counted, when it really matters. Roger failed that test of courage... Roger failed when he refused to admit he was wrong... Roger failed as a leader... Roger betrayed their trust in a devious, sly and underhanded manner... Roger is no Al Capone--Roger never had the gonads for that. Roger is no Michael Milliken--he was not smart enough for that. Roger is no Bernie Ebbers--Roger is too small time a crook to be in that league. Roger is a small man, a boy really, who never grew up. He never ever had any followers--only bought accomplices... "

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 5:30 p.m.

Roger...you note that we "are playing on home turf".

And, "imagine if they had to play an away game on the territory of their apponents".

My question is this. I have assumed you were a Canadian with all the rights of every other. Would that not place us on an even footing?

I wonder why then you see yourself now playing an away game on the territory of those you view as your apponents ?

If you value living here solittle as well as , ( you are ), being a CDN, you do have options my friend.

Of course, in a less open , say less pluralistic society like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq etc etc, it is quite unlikely that either of us would be able to speak freely in all settings.

In Iran we even saw a CDN - Iranian (beautiful) soul, journalist, tortured and killed for seeking freedom of speech and information.

Doubtful there is anything close to resembling an equal footing in the places Roger would have us debate.

He seems to want to see harm come to me, as per Black.

Again, tempting to reply to this beahvioural trait, but as someone who lives amoung us, I would rather welcome Roger into an open sense of chat and , maybe in my naivety, help in some small measure in his developing a sense of security to reveal his true colours.

Cheers.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 5:38 p.m.

wave99"My family are first generation immigrants so, frankly, I don't know what the heck you are trying to get at with that one."
-----

However good or bad country Canada may be, it's diminished by cretins like you who support crooks and murderers.

If only Black's cronies, as a sign of solidarity, would give up their Canadian citizenship as well.

haithabu October 24, 2007 at 5:45 p.m.

Roger:" Haithabu too feels the loss of his cultural references. He is nostalgic for a world he sees as disappearing..."

Hi Roger,

Nice counter, but you're reaching a bit yourself. I freely admit that I may be wrong about your inner motivations, though I will stick with my shot in the dark until I see evidence to the contrary. You are wrong about my own motivation however. My cultural references since my youth have been those of a self-contained cultural/religious minority. I'm used to being disagreed with.

I guess that's why I hang out on the Conrad Black flog blog.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 5:51 p.m.

Wave 99 said:

"Canada itself has come across as arrogant due largely to a national sense of insecurity compared ( by ourselves ) to our southern neighbour."

See? This is similar to the kind of crap Conrad Black is trying to sell. Canada has both arrogance and a sense of inferiority at the same time, eh? Sounds like quite a feat. I would say that you are out of touch, and that's being polite.

Wave99 tried to unite himself with me in this way:

"Barbara, if you re-read the notes from the 3 of us, you will see we are actually wanting to find common ground with Roger, but recognize it is only likely to occur with his putting down his defensiveness."

I already share "common ground with Roger", we agree on many points when it comes to Conrad Black. So do most other Canadians. Roger's defensiveness? What the heck are you talking about? Your blather is getting to be like an avalanche.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 6:36 p.m.

"I already share "common ground with Roger", we agree on many points when it comes to Conrad Black. So do most other Canadians. Roger's defensiveness? What the heck are you talking about? Your blather is getting to be like an avalanche."
------

BBC: Couldn't agree more. The bigots claim Roger is alternatively offensive or defensive, depending on which side of the mouth their bile is dripping from.

gary e October 24, 2007 at 6:51 p.m.

Just heard on CBC radio news at 6 pm tonight a story on the Black trial where the juror Jean Kelly claimed in an interview that one of the jurors was so inclined to find Black guilty of everything that she threatened to bring a gun into the jury room to convince everyone to vote guilty. Kelly said that they didn't report her actions to the judge because they were afraid that they would get the juror kicked off the jury, and have to restart deliberations with one of the alternates. (this was after 2 weeks of deliberations.)

Several legal eagles weighed in, saying it was a serious issue, except Totten who said it shouldn't matter.

I searched CBC site and google news , but couldn't come up with an article about this.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 7:26 p.m.

Barbara...I'm not going to let the temptation to respond to your insults in kind and towards Roger.

I appreciate my words re Canada were just too tempting to avoid the inevitable criticisms.

Apparantly you have little use for democracy and perhaps that is a cultural trait...I don't know. Of course, that means I am a bigot, right ?

I recall when Donna wrongly accused you of such things and I jumped to your defense. Had I been a bigot then, I would have applauded Donna's words and welcomed you to some kind of sick club.

Barb. You are using really inflamatory language alot recently. Think about that. Was Donna correct ?

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 7:30 p.m.

W101...well I have avoided replying to your rude comments to me and about me for about a month now.

But enough is enough. Where as Roger has some real chance at redemption and making himself understood, you are just a total ...hate to say it...idiot, with so little hope that it concerns me that the word redemption be in Webster's, as it is a concept that should apply to everyone and I can't see how you have a chance.

Now I support murderers you state. You are just the oddest duck guy on the face of this planet. Well done. I'll be attaching your reward shortly.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 7:35 p.m.

interesting news item gary e, I tried to find more on that but couldn't. If true, it's bizarre.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 7:51 p.m.

Wave 99 says I'm using inflammatory language recently. Well too bad. I am reacting to the snobby attitude coming from both you and Conrad Black.

There's hope for Conrad Black, but he obviously has been getting terrible advice. He's going about buttering up Canadians all wrong. If he wants to be welcomed back into Canada he must understand that we don't appreciate him giving us a condescending pat on the head for how GREAT Canada has become lately. We know we're doing just fine. The average Canadian feels neither arrogance or inferiority when they look at America: we are just delighted to have decent universal health care and no involvement in the Iraq war. Thanks to wise leadership!

haithabu October 24, 2007 at 7:57 p.m.

Barbara:"See? This is similar to the kind of crap Conrad Black is trying to sell. Canada has both arrogance and a sense of inferiority at the same time, eh? Sounds like quite a feat."

I agree with Wave on this one. Arrogance is often a way of compensating for a sense of inferiority or insecurity. Call it short man syndrome. But it's not Canada which has the problem - just many Canadians. I saw this insecurity big time during the NAFTA campaign.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 8:06 p.m.

haithabu: As a woman I can definitely state that Canada doesn't have "short man syndrome".

Jeanne October 24, 2007 at 8:47 p.m.

I have been reflecting on this comment from CB in the Vogue article: "I do regret giving up my Canadian citizenship," he said, "but I always said I would take it back."

"TAKE it BACK"? What's the implication of the words he chose? He'd take his Canadian citizenship back if it were offered to him on a silver platter? He'd take it back if Canada begged him to? If that's what CB meant by his words, he is deluded. He thinks Canadians wants him back as a citizen?

Or does TAKE it BACK means he plans to seize his Canadian citizenship back by force sometime in the future? From whom? Is he thinking of storming the Governor General's residence and brandishing a sword at the poor lady? Or is CB planning to don one of his faux military uniforms and threaten the ceremonial red-coated guards outside the House of Commons in Ottawa?

What does he mean, "I always said I would take it back"?

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 9 p.m.

Barb.

You have lowered the bar so far that you now donot have the same right you once had to critisize Donna's comments upon you, else be called a hypocrit.

You have made me, invoking my democratic right within this great country, a bigot for doing so.

Hypocrit.

Is this because I would not send you a private email despite your obvious invite ?

I am married Barb and love my wife !

haithabu October 24, 2007 at 9:04 p.m.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 8:06 p.m.
"haithabu: As a woman I can definitely state that Canada doesn't have "short man syndrome"."

I'm not saying that Canadians do in a generalized sense, but many do specifically towards Americans. Many Canadians love to exchange disparaging stories about Americans, and I think the reason lies in their attitudes towards themselves as Canadians.

I've never had patience with that habit. When I was growing up, we were always slipping back and forth across the border to visit cousins, uncles and aunts and grandparents. I never felt that nationality made an essential difference between us. We were all just family. Looking back, I appreciate the experience, because it inoculated me against the more virulent forms of Canadian chauvinism.

I'm proud of Canada as it is, but I would be even prouder if more Canadians would become secure enough in their own identity to talk about the US without going immdeiately to comparisons.

BTW....the US does have universal health care - in some respects superior to our own. What it does not have is universal health insurance. There's a difference between the two.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 9:15 p.m.

Haithabu.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Canada is a great country...a great concept. Despite its many flaws.

One of the aspects that occasionally allows me to take greater pride than usual in Canada is when we intentionally self depricate.

The essence of a mature country and one that is forward thinking and open to improving itself is in its ability to take itself a little less serious at times.

To make mention of 'our' weaknesses with the grand purpose of creating a positive change.

That is true stregnth in an individual or a country.

This blustering style of false bravado and suedo nationalism that is heard so often has always been quite embarrasing to me.

And it usually came in the form of being critical of another while invoking the same verbose methodology said to be wrong by those we compare ourselves to.

In this sense , I do think Canada is coming of age and growing more secure. We simply seem to be hearing fewer comparisons from within, the source and result of the insecurity.

Jeanne October 24, 2007 at 9:16 p.m.

wave 99:

This is the way we spell that word: hypocrite. With an E at the end.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 9:18 p.m.

Last thought for the evening.

It is nice to know that Barb feels it is not the size of the country that matters, but rather how one uses it.

Allows me to sleep better. Cheers.

gary e October 24, 2007 at 9:18 p.m.

"Universal health care"

Please explain what you mean by this.

Jeanne October 24, 2007 at 9:23 p.m.

haithabu says: "BTW....the US does have universal health care..."

Sure, and pigs can fly too. Tell that laffer about US universal health to the people whose lives have been ruined when someone in their family had a health crisis and the insurers told the docs they wouldn't pay for treatment.

Next, you're going to tell us the US is a democracy.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 9:31 p.m.

JEANNE---LOL--GREAT POST!

I see I have struck a nerve with the Black camp. They are quite emotional, even seeking to psychologize me! LOL! I understand their defensiveness. They have just sustained terribly bad news. Lord Black has mused aloud of going to jail and the past three days of revelations from jurors that Black dodged a deadly bullet and that the jurors themselves were overwhelmingly angry that Black was getting off lightly with 4 convictions must have struck them like a thunderbolt. The past two days of articles about the gun threats and arguments on the jury was largely missed by this crowd mainly because the Black inner camp is in shock. Black's appeal is more dead in the water than ever, and the revelations are worse news than Black could possibly have imagined. His staunchest defenders on the jury convicted him on 4 counts. People who were threatened and fought heroicly, believed from the outset he was guilty of at least 4 charges. Very bad news.

About the projection from Lit and Wave, it is to be expected. In these situations the good therapist allows the client to vent, guarding against counter-transference. It is therapeutic to let them weep and vent and get things off their chest. I usually get paid a lot for providing such therapy, but one has to do some pro bono publico work from time to time.

Wave99 and Lit, when you wake up from your nightmare that Black is going to a horrible jail cell, relax. You are not having a nightmare, you are not delusional, it is all real. Black really is going to a horrible jail cell. Just a tip. Stop watching and listening and reading the news for the next 6 weeks. Nov 30 is an especially inauspicious time to be taking in the news. Do something else. It will be good for your state of mind. But if it helps, scream my name and kick around a wooden log in the park while screaming my name--it can be cathartic--look that word up, it is useful to know next time you play doctor and do psychobabble.

Black is cracking up. Amiel is keeping a low profile. The Black camp is steeling themselves for Nov 30. They know it is the end. The appeal will be a footnote, a formality, some comfort blanket for Black to hang onto to keep his the dwindling embers of hope alive. The curtain will soon fall on the Black show. The fat lady is winding up. The sun will go down on Nov 30 in Chicago and there will be the Blackness of night. Night. In the darkness, a steel door will clang shut. The finality of that sound is something only an inmate can truly understand. Napoleon never left St Helena. Strange, some of my not-so-distant ancestors come from St Helena. The world is a small place.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 9:32 p.m.

Jeanne.

It's pretty common knowkedge within this blog that I am a terrible speller and oddly quite proud about that.

Similarly I have never learned in my 40 some years on planet earth how to ty a ty knot...yeah...I know...sp issues again !

What does one have to do with the other you ask ?

Very little infact, but I like to meander in and out of thoughts from time to time ! Another violently disembowling personal attribute.

I have a Manager who works for me who insists that he would never hire me if I applied for a job with these,my, spelling and typing skills.

It's a lucky thing that I am self employed in a small but well positioned company !

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 9:39 p.m.

WOW, WAVE99 REALLY IS HURTIN' BAD! He is now trying to attack the ever polite and courteous Barbara in BC with his full arsenal of psychobabble.

Wave99, nothing can save Black now. Have a good cry, sob your eyes out, then get up refreshed in the morning and breathe the air of freedom--something Black can no longer do. Black is already a prisoner in Florida. Not for all the millions of dollars in the world would anyone want to be in Black's shoes. But you are free! That is, to the extent that a person of limited intellect can be free. But, hey, make the most of it. Don't let bitterness consume you. You don't owe Black anything, do you? Course not!

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 9:43 p.m.

WAVE99 WROTE OF HIMSELF,"I am self employed in a small but well positioned company !" Well-positioned? I dred inquiring further. And he has a Manager who works for him! Yeah, a Manager.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 9:46 p.m.

Roger. I think you dounderstand this.

Our fear is not how Conrad Black will adjust to jail , but rather how you might fail to adjust should he be issued a short sentence and win an appeal or two.

I do read your contributions.

You have alot more emotional energy tied up in seeing a result, than anyone within this blog setting.

If I ever write a short story or a book on prison life, I will refer back to the creative expressions of most every imaginable aspect of jail forwarded entirely by you.

Should your wish not be granted that he be placed in jail for a very long term and physically abused while there, you might be the jumper on the bridge edge, whom I just can't drive past without trying to help.

In this case, 3 of us. Lit, Haib and myself are just attempting to invoke preventive medicine and simply let you know that you don't need to be this way.

I don't want to put words in their mouths but I get a charge out of you. I really, actually do ! The only times in which I don't is not when you feel a need to flatter me with offense( a sign that you have given up the argument ), but when I get a sense that you are hurting, confused and feeling out of place.

wave99 October 24, 2007 at 9:54 p.m.

Roger.

You just repeated what I wrote with out commentary as if repeating it were commentary enough.

Yes,I am self employed.

Largely, you will agree, because I am likely very unemployable.

Yes,I have people...great people,working for and with me.

Why is any of that a big deal and worthy of even acknowledging ?

Insecurities abound. It's sad and not necessary.

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 9:55 p.m.

HAITHABU WINS THE AWARD FOR THE GREATEST POST EVER

>BTW....the US does have universal health care - in some respects superior to our own. What it does not have is universal health insurance. There's a difference between the two<

Have you ever heard of cross-training? Sure you have. But have you heard of American hospital cross-training? See, if the person taking you blood pressure looks familiar in a US hospital, that's because since the 1990s, US hospitals have cross training. The security guard might come to take your blood pressure after a few minutes spent training to do that task. Or they might come to give you a bedpan. The cook might come up to take your temperature--he or she will decide where and how. Remeber Radler's approach to wringing out costs out of an organization? That is what has been happening to hospitals in the US--in one day, a US hospital executive made a windfall of over $1 billion in his personal take home pay! LOL! Black can only dream.

Guess what has happened to professional nursing staff? Guess what has happened to patient care? Guess what happens when something goes wrong! One of these cooks trained in giving insulin injections mentioned in passing to a nurse that one of the patients was sleeping off the insulin problems the patient had earlier experienced--luckily the nurse got there in time to sound the alarm to resusitate the unconscious patient. Not all patients are so lucky. Then there are those with no medical coverage at all in the USA--over 40 million people.

I could post a 40 volume post here on the health situation in the USA, but it would only scratch the surface. Health outcomes in Canada is better on every measurable parameter than in the USA! Check the OECD stats in this regard. And it is overall cheaper and more efficient and more productive in Canada, AND HAS BETTER OUTCOMES!
Haithabu, where did you graduate from? UWO? What a joke! You ought to sue them for miseducation!

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 10:02 p.m.

WAVE99 WROTE "If I ever write a short story or a book on prison life, I will refer back to the creative expressions of most every imaginable aspect of jail forwarded entirely by you."

Oh, but they are not "creative expressions" of my imagination! Unlike you, I have a real education. I actually have studied some criminology and more specifically, Canadian institutional prison life, admittedly, more in the area of female prisoners than male prisoners, but my post is informed by scholarship and research, not merely my opinions. You ought to try studying something then forming an opinion that is informed, instead of forming an opinion and selectively searching support for your opinion--that is just poor scholarship and bound to end in disappointment for yourself. Don't thank me, educating people is a duty of the educated. Did you mention somewhere that you are actually in your 40s? Wow, I took you for a high school kid. You hide your age well!

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 10:09 p.m.

WAVE99-- you don't have to get defensive about your self-employment. All work has dignity. All workers are worthy of respect. Unless of course one is a crook running a criminal enterprise stealing from shareholders or pimping or dealing dope or running guns or something like that.

I can figure out why Mike Harris and Steve Harper like to attack working people all the time, even attacking school teachers, judges, government civil servants and even our diplomatic corps. Harper was largely unemployed until he became a politician. Not having ever worked at a real job, Harper thinks it is okay to attack people who keep Canada functioning with their labour.

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 10:14 p.m.

I go and make dinner and when I come back I find wave99 slandering my name all over the place. But I did find this to be witty:

"It is nice to know that Barb feels it is not the size of the country that matters, but rather how one uses it."

jade_lee October 24, 2007 at 10:20 p.m.

I know from experience, CB will not fair well in prison.
Do you bloggers think that people in prison don't read?

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 10:22 p.m.

Jeanne October 24, 2007 at 8:47 p.m.

I have been reflecting on this comment from CB in the Vogue article: "I do regret giving up my Canadian citizenship," he said, "but I always said I would take it back."

"TAKE it BACK"? What's the implication of the words he chose? He'd take his Canadian citizenship back if it were offered to him on a silver platter? He'd take it back if Canada begged him to? If that's what CB meant by his words, he is deluded. He thinks Canadians wants him back as a citizen?

Or does TAKE it BACK means he plans to seize his Canadian citizenship back by force sometime in the future? From whom? Is he thinking of storming the Governor General's residence and brandishing a sword at the poor lady? Or is CB planning to don one of his faux military uniforms and threaten the ceremonial red-coated guards outside the House of Commons in Ottawa?

What does he mean, "I always said I would take it back"?
====

LOL!!!

Black used to tell his shareholders that he would privatize "his" companies and take it back --people assumed he meant he would buy out the shareholders, but now we know differently! LOL! Black really meant to say that he would steal all the assets of the company and all the shareholders' money and take off leaving them with the bills and the liabilities. Black is a brazen thief!

Barbara in BC October 24, 2007 at 10:25 p.m.

haithabu said simplistically:

"Many Canadians love to exchange disparaging stories about Americans, and I think the reason lies in their attitudes towards themselves as Canadians."

Disparaging stories we tell about Americans? You mean the ones about bearded people being held in Guantanamo Bay without the right to a fair trial for instance. We only criticize Americans because we feel "insecure in our identity" as Canadians of course! Americans are beyond criticism because they have big powerful missiles...

ROGER October 24, 2007 at 10:27 p.m.

jade_lee October 24, 2007 at 10:20 p.m.

I know from experience, CB will not fair well in prison.
Do you bloggers think that people in prison don't read?

-----

I bet there is a reception committee waiting for Black at prisons across the USA. Bob S was correct when he said Black will pay protection money. Every gang will try to bag Black and then offer him a deal--either pay up or work off the debt in jail. Black will be on the phone sobbing to Amiel to get the money fast because they will give him a sample of the work they have in mind. Amiel will likely hang up on poor Conrad. I think Shirley/Joanne and the kids will come through for Black, as much as they can. Got to feel sorry for the family.

W101 October 24, 2007 at 10:33 p.m.

Roger: "I see I have struck a nerve with the Black camp ... The world is a small place."
-----

LOL! ... LOL!

W101 October 24, 2007 at 10:45 p.m.

Roger, What "click" will be more resounding and devastating for Black, the final bolt sliding home on his cell the night of Nov. 30, or the click of the phone as he blubbers his last desperate pleas into the receiver?
Hopefully Black will have learned from his strategic mistakes in the outside world. If he bungles "working the system" in jail as badly as he did at Hollinger, he could be in for a rough ride.

jade_lee October 24, 2007 at 11:43 p.m.

CB will be pushed to the front of the prison workboard line and he will be utilized, it's amazing what the prison system can do within those walls.....
You people watch too much TV and listen to what politicans speew. CB will do what all other prisoners end up doing....there time.

jade_lee October 24, 2007 at 11:44 p.m.

correction
Their Time

gary e October 25, 2007 at midnight

What if Conrad doesn't matter?

What if this debating debacle we promulgate here is just a diversion created to think we have a voice about something important?

As issues that dearly matter to our children and grand children get quietly frittered away in the fog of present cleverness.

Roger, Barbara, Wav99, Lit200, Bob, Fintan, Leaf, Jeanne, et al, what is the point of this debate?

Entertainment or enlightenment?

Please enlighten me. I am open to your advice.

jade_lee October 25, 2007 at 12:01 a.m.

correction
spew
Ok enough with the corrections, sometimes when I read about CB it reminds me of how historically the press has been used by most powerful public types to promote themselves or discredit their enemies, CB is so well connected in the print world that I often wonder if he is calling in favours or if that is just how the press culture works, they protect their own.

Once in a blue moon October 25, 2007 at 1:20 a.m.

Whatever happened to Roger's best friend Donna? Donna is so much more endearing than Roger's sadistic sarcasm. Or is it sad sarcasm? And, Rog, isn't it the sign of a dumb man who constantly needs to prove he's so smart? But wait... Would a smart man be on this dumb blog for that long...?

thewholestory October 25, 2007 at 1:31 a.m.

Gary E- you heard wrong check it our yourself
http://www.cbc.ca/national/

ROGER October 25, 2007 at 3:18 a.m.

THE POOR BLACK CAMP IS IN DISARRAY

Reality is sinking in, finally.

They are now going through a grieving process for their fallen hero and their lost innocence.

They are entitled to their moment of grieving--it comes once in a blue moon. Wave99, Lit 2000 and Haithabu are the last stalwart die-hards and it is a sad time for them. All their cherished hopes and dreams rode on Black prevailing against all odds. Now it has come to this sad and pathetic realization that Black is finished. Not done, finished. His best path now is to follow in the footsteps of the Marquis de Sade and generate a new type of literature, prison diaries. It could be a farcical version of low-brow melodramatic Black schtick take off on the Man from Lamancha, with Don Conrad leading the inmates in a re-enactment of Sade's Marat.

>Die Verfolgung und Ermordung Jean Paul Marats dargestellt durch die Schauspielgruppe des Hospizes zu Charenton unter Anleitung des Herrn de Sade, translated from the original German as The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum of Charenton Under the Direction of the Marquis de Sade, published in 1963, is a play by Peter Weiss, directed both on stage and screen by Peter Brook. The title is almost invariably shortened to Marat/Sade.

Incorporating dramatic elements characteristic of both Artaud and Brecht (a combination some find paradoxical) it is a bloody and unrelenting depiction of human struggle and suffering which asks whether true revolution comes first from changing society or changing one's self.<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marat/Sade

Perhaps this could help answer Gary E? Gary raised the profound question of US prisons and punishment. That is now the focus of Black supporters too, or it soon will be. Enlightenment cannot be found sitting under a banyan tree or chanting mantras in a temple or living as a monk in a saffron robe armed only with a begging bowl. Perhaps to expect enlightenment is to expect too much out of life. Perhaps one has to merely grapple with and live life to the fullest, wherever one is, whether in prison or a free person. Perhaps personal enlightenment comes from taking some personal time to help others less fortunate than oneself. I believe Black and Amiel are more enlightened now than they were before, but they have some way to go yet. It is a pity they cannot now use their enlightenment for good because they have falled from power.

I woke up in the middle of the night a few weeks ago and realized that I was feeling better than I have in decades and wish that this very pleasant feeling will last forever. I cannot figure out what happened and why. Perhaps asking why and how is pointless--confabulation will take over.

ROGER October 25, 2007 at 3:46 a.m.

gary e October 25, 2007 at midnight

What if Conrad doesn't matter?
===

Of course Black matters. He is a father, a husband, an ex-spouse, a human being with intrinsic worth, as all people possess.
Every person matters, no matter what Black and Amiel have said in the past.

But your point is well taken. Black is merely the foil for real discussion. That is true. Soon Black the man will recede into personal irrelevance and obscurity. But the morality play characters of Black and Amiel will endure like a Shakespearian play, a tragicomedy of high farce, objects of derision and mirth.

Lit 200 October 25, 2007 at 6:56 a.m.

Roger:

"But the morality play characters of Black and Amiel will endure like a Shakespearian play, a tragicomedy of high farce, objects of derision and mirth."

Lit 200

"In any case, the show in Chicago is a fascinating play and I am enjoying every act!"

W101:

"A truly sick and juvenile individual.

It's not a play moron."

Marina Y. Osmond October 25, 2007 at 7:09 a.m.

I appears that all men's lives no matter how successful end in failure. The lord is not alone.

OJ October 25, 2007 at 7:21 a.m.

I was driving downtown Palm Beach to a hardware store, when an SUV hit my Mercedes. I got off and got in a road-rage with a fat old white fellow. He told me to get lost, coz
he had no time to talking to rabble. I asked for his id but said his passport was taken away from him by some judge. Then he drove away over my foot.

Lit 200 October 25, 2007 at 7:42 a.m.

Roger: "In these situations the good therapist allows the client to vent, guarding against counter-transference. It is therapeutic to let them weep and vent and get things off their chest. I usually get paid a lot for providing such therapy, but one has to do some pro bono publico work from time to time."

If you are a therapist, pro bono or otherwise, God pity your patients. I thought you had withdrawn from the world... given up your wealth etc. Fess up, Roger. You have not an inkling of what you are presuming to talk about.

A man confident of his worth and scholarship would not find it necessary to boast anonymously in a blog about Conrad Black...

"I have engaged in open debate from Canada to America to Western Europe to Africa to Asia and back. I have lived, worked and studied on 4 continents."

I don't think so, Roger. I think you are a noisy fake and a fraud. If you were half of what you assert you are, you could not possibly be such a dogmatic and boastful person. True scholarship proceeds quietly, by stating a proposition and then backing it up with incontrovertible facts. You, on the other hand, begin with noxious emotions... you deride, decry, insult and display an inability to consider contrary views. You also project a frightening desire for vengeance and violence - hardly the mark of an advanced mind. And talk about counter-transference! As I said earlier, you are projecting your own weaknesses on to Conrad Black and then attacking them.

You are awash in yourself, old boy. Your self-importance is visible for all, except yourself and your acolytes, to see. Frankly, in all your blather, I see boasting, I see insult, I see belittling of others, I see derision. But I have yet to see one original thought.

Lir 200 October 25, 2007 at 7:44 a.m.

That was Roger OJ. Sic 'em!

Marie Charmant Bourrasseau October 25, 2007 at 7:59 a.m.

As a quebecer during my summer holidays I went to the post office in west palm beach. While waiting in line to buy postage, a bloated fellow wearing no socks, standing behind me asked me: if there is a video-camera in the premises? I noticed that he was moving 13 boxes himself. I asked him about the boxes, he replied that they had no value at all except sentimental value. In fact he said that it was his loyal secretary that packed them and was mailing them to Chicago for some kind of appeal. He noticed my accent and talked to me in quebec-french. i don't know why he came accross as a felon.

Lit 200 October 25, 2007 at 8:12 a.m.

Although this is somewhat off topic, some commentators might find it interesting that President Bush used a question and answer session on Cuba to call upon Cubans to "embrace change."

It was not too long ago that Osama bin Laden issued a similar appeal, calling on Americans to "embrace Islam."

Perhaps the two of them have the same speechwriter and publicist.

Lit is a big bore October 25, 2007 at 9:02 a.m.

Lit 200

Don't you have anything better to do than to psychoanalyze Roger and blabber on about the same boring stuff day after day? You have managed to say the same thing in so many different ways that you deserve an award for most tiresome poster on this blog. My guess is that you are a retiree who basically sits at his computer all day and drives his poor wife crazy. Get a real life, man. And for once, say something truly original and thought - provoking.

gary e October 25, 2007 at 10:48 a.m.

thewholestory October 25, 2007 at 1:31 a.m.

Gary E- you heard wrong check it our yourself
http://www.cbc.ca/national/

I heard right. Get the full interview with Jean Kelly and a second juror with Mark Kelly.Was also shown on CBC's National tv news show last night from 10:30 to 11 pm. The threatening juror's last name was Davis, I think.

W101 October 25, 2007 at 11:12 a.m.

Twit: "But I have yet to see one original thought."
-----

LOL! No kidding!!

Lit is indeed a big bore but worst of all , LIT supports criminals and murderers. Twit is an immoral toadie.

He thinks it's all a play for his enjoyment. Twit is truly sick.

wave99 is also a big bore October 25, 2007 at 11:33 a.m.

If wave99 owns his own company, what the hell is he doing sitting on a blog wasting time posting about Black? Why isn't he running his company? Seems to me that he, like Lit 200, are useless old fogies who pass their time in front of computer screens endlessly and boringly dissecting, in myriads of boring ways,the " wonderfulness " of Conrad Black. Spare us the endless blabber with its self - important and self - righteous analysis. Nobody cares what you think. Go do something productive for a change.

wave99 October 25, 2007 at 11:36 a.m.

I had the night to think about it.

I won't quit on him.

Roger has continued to say some prertty nasty things about some of us. Deeply personal and with no place on this blog.

The temptation remains to reply in kind.

I won't.

I know change is not easy. It takes time and it tskes trust.

Roger needs to know that this outbursts will not recoil in with the same type of personal attacks he needs to maintain this character facade.

I believe. I know actually, he is hurting deeply.

Let's work thru it folks. He is an enjoyable writer when / if he sticks to a topic honestly.

And part of this growing process, which can happen at any age ( so there is always hope )is to allow oneself the chance tonot be critisized for not knowing the answer. Or not having a logical reply.

It's all about true educationa and learning.

If we continue to walk down a path in which we point out the obvious weaknesses in his PRESENT style, we might only be encouraging more of the same.

I think, Lit, Haib., we should just , from here on in, talk positively about Roger. Let him know that it's ok.

We don't hate him or dislike him. We don't even need him to see 'our' point of view to interact well.

I think any gesture along this line is grand. A macro level -actually- contribution to creating peace and understanding.

Cheers.

leaf October 25, 2007 at 11:39 a.m.

ROGER July 23, 2007 at 4:07 p.m.

As for Lady Barbara, some ladies stand on a street corner under a light while others put on a red light while in Amsterdam and Hamburg they sit in picture windows displaying themselves to buyers. Courtesans are more refined and discrete. Charm and wit are required of good courtesans, while Geisha have to have musical talent, excellent posture and deferential to men.
It would have been cheaper for Lord Black to remain single and to merely visit brothels when the urge was upon him.

Hey toronna lawyer, this roger guy called me a male chauvinist a couple days ago without a hint of a proof.
When you have managed to track me down, I’ll make your chatroom libel & defamation suit worthwhile by counter suing that ignorant liar. How’s that?

Lit 200 October 25, 2007 at 11:58 a.m.

Wave: good idea. we'll see.

cheers

Leaf is an idiot October 25, 2007 at 11:58 a.m.

But by far the biggest idiot on this blog has to be leaf. Sad when someone is so stupid that they have nothing better to do than to sit at a computer all day. No one takes seriously what this moron types and yet, day after day, the jerk keeps posting. Probably some jobless squirt who quit school and can't get a job because he's too dumb. Go rake some leaves or haul garbage, you moron, and spare us the ignorance that is you.

leaf October 25, 2007 at 12:01 p.m.

good luck to you wave99.
i'm taking the tough love approach with rog podge. neither one of us will succeed in turning 'roger' into a reasonable human being but trying is all the fun ☺

wave99 is also a big bore October 25, 2007 at 12:07 p.m.

We don't hate him or dislike him. We don't even need him to see 'our' point of view to interact well.

I think any gesture along this line is grand. A macro level -actually- contribution to creating peace and understanding.

Cheers.

Oh just shut up!

gary e October 25, 2007 at 12:38 p.m.

Donna is an idiot.

leaf October 25, 2007 at 12:38 p.m.

Why I am constantly criticized for reading this blog by people who have been posting on it for, what?, 6-7 months, is beyond me.

I know it’s a bit scary and embarrassing to have your own words come back to haunt and expose you but hey, you wrote them, not me.

I take pure delight in doing just that. It’s a very satisfying spare-time occupation.
Gary e, does that answer your earlier question?

Barbara in BC October 25, 2007 at 1:12 p.m.

gary e: I will continue to look for a story about a gun toting juror called [possibly] Davis.

Barbara in BC October 25, 2007 at 1:27 p.m.

Here's a story to warm the heart of Conrad Black:

"Cheer up, comrade Nixon"

WASHINGTON — "As the Watergate scandal enveloped late U.S. president Richard Nixon, he was buoyed by a secret message of moral support from Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev, newly released documents show.

Mr. Brezhnev told the U.S. president he knew he would not “crack under the pressure.”

....In response, speaking slowly, Mr. Nixon said he wished to thank Mr. Brezhnev “for the fact that he, perhaps alone among the leaders of other nations, including the allies, had found simple human words to lift his spirits,” Mr. Dobrynin wrote in the documents released this week."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s...

ROGER October 25, 2007 at 1:31 p.m.

LOL! WHEN ONE CONSIDERS LEAF AND WAVE99 ARE THE SAME PERSON, THEN ONE UNDERSTANDS THE PROBLEM OF THE TWO LOW IQ IDENTITIE INHABITING THE SAME MIND. LOL! Wave99 is furiously waving he white flag of surrender while his more retarded self wishes to fight on. He is a fascinating case, for those who deal in multiple personality disorder of cretins. I can't say it is a subjec that has attracted my professional attention.

I wonder whether Haithabu has read that damning OECD report yet on comparative healthcare statistics where America fails on very parameter vis-a-vis healthcare delivery compared to Canada. To ideologues like Haithabu and Harper and Black and Amiel and Mark Steyn high-school dropouts, reports like the OECD report are to be ignored totally because it does not fit their ideological viewpoint. Doesn't Harper claim to be an economist? He is such a good economist he could never get hired by anyone to work as an economist ever. Mark Steyn is an expert on population demographics, especially fertility rates. According to Steyn, every Muslim female in Europe will have around 1,000 or so live births within the next decade or two. Steyn has a big following who believe these numbers. Let's see, 9 months times 1,000 gestation periods, not forgetting prepubescent (pre-menarche) and post-menopausal infertile Muslim women. Steyn is working the details out. Steyn's phd is in intelligent design from Jimmy Jones Correspondence University.

ROGER October 25, 2007 at 1:49 p.m.

BARBARA IN BC: >Mr. Brezhnev told the U.S. president he knew he would not “crack under the pressure.”

....In response, speaking slowly, Mr. Nixon said he wished to thank Mr. Brezhnev “for the fact that he, perhaps alone among the leaders of other nations, including the allies, had found simple human words to lift his spirits,”<

LOL! Good thing Khruschev was not around--he would have beat his shoe on the table in public and laughed at Nixon the Crook! Stalin's advice to Nixon would have been to shoot Bernstein and Woodward and to lock everyone else up in camps.

Barbara in BC October 25, 2007 at 2:27 p.m.

Roger: What struck me is that of course the Communist regime would ooze w