Patrick December 20, 2007 at 5:10 p.m.

I don't think it's any secret that Paul Waldie and the Star's Rick Westhead led the coverage of the trial. I've read a few posts from people asking which publication did the best job. Waldie was terrific for the day-to-day details in the Globe of testimony, but it sometimes fell flat. Westhead had great detail in the Star, too, and landed dinner with Conrad the week of the sentencing. He did a great behind-the-scene piece, as well, that I loved about Donald Trump being a no show, and other details. The Post was pretty blah. I didn't read the Brit papers enough to offer a judgment. Doug Bell - you're in the know. What do you think?

For Fintan December 20, 2007 at 5:12 p.m.

Good news for the brave Irish heroes...another reason for Fintan to celebrate.

BELFAST (AFP) - A court on Thursday cleared a man accused of murdering 29 people in the Omagh bombing, Northern Ireland's worst atrocity in three decades of violence.

Sean Hoey, 38, had denied a total of 56 charges relating to a huge car bomb that ripped through the busy high street of the market town of Omagh, west of Belfast, on August 15, 1998.

Dixon December 20, 2007 at 6:39 p.m.

Gotta smile at the irony of disclosure and fine print working for Conrad in the apt. deal and against him in the fraud case.

Seems early to claim victory, the case ain't over.
Sotheby's sued for commission; Black counter-claimed; Sotheby's requested a judge to throw out Black's claim; judge denies request and allows it to proceed toward trial.

Maybe they'll settle :-). Surely Sotheby's deserves a little taste of the proceeds that will soon be freed up from USJD. Conrad realized an impressive capital gain on the apartment, unlike poor Hollinger Int'l-lucky to sell it to him at their cost after holding it for 6 years in an obviously lacklustre New York real estate market.

Sorry, sarcasm worked better face-to-face over Scotch and Cubans at 10 Toronto St. back in the '70s.

leaf December 20, 2007 at 6:47 p.m.

Barb, i am deeply in love with you and wish for a sapphic experience complete with tribade ecstacy. when can we meet? i am a very lonely person who spends my days pining for company ever since my goldfish died. i have given up on men.

Barbara in BC December 20, 2007 at 7:03 p.m.

I've been reading up on John Paul Jones, who Conrad Black quoted above. Turns out he was commander of a Russian ship at one point in his career - guess America was friendly with the Russians back then. Jones had his ups and downs for sure.

Barbara in BC December 20, 2007 at 7:05 p.m.

This is Black's quote from the Globe and Mail story:

"Then he invoked American Revolutionary War hero John Paul Jones: "I have just begun to fight."

constance December 20, 2007 at 7:10 p.m.

I love the way Barbara in BC is so self-deprecating. It takes a strong person to be able to laugh at themselves.

Barbara in BC December 20, 2007 at 7:14 p.m.

leaf: reposting comments from one thread to another is a form of spam.

jade_lee December 20, 2007 at 10:44 p.m.

Leaf is poisoning this blog environment, she needs to rethink her values and how she treats others.

jade_lee December 20, 2007 at 10:45 p.m.

Did jade_lee post that 2244 hrs post? Only her hairdresser knows for sure!

constance December 20, 2007 at 11:38 p.m.

Hi. My boss once worked at Hollinger and he suggested this blog as a way to learn about Conrad Black and his case. At the beginning I thought a bunch of people were having fun. But it seems people like Barbara and Leaf an others have nothing to say about the case - only petty abuse to one another, especially Barbara who is always insulting everbody . Can't everybody be more civil and discuss the case?

Barbara in BC December 21, 2007 at 12:04 a.m.

Constance: Boy, are you ever late to the discussion! We've been here talking for MONTHS.

constance December 21, 2007 at 12:15 a.m.

Barbara -- you don't seem to discuss anything, only insult everybody but you are not the only one.

JONES December 21, 2007 at 12:18 a.m.

constance et al:

The trial is over. Black has been convicted and sentenced. Black is now a convicted felon and can be called exactly what he is a "thief". Why these people on this blog continue to rehash the trial is beyond me. What should be discussed is the fact that Radler may be in jail while Black is out free in Florida pending appeals. Figure that out. I stll maintain Black will never do any time. If Black sees one day in jail you can call me Meyer. Now who can tell me made that famous quote? Maybe with a few different variations at the beginning.

Barbara in BC December 21, 2007 at 12:25 a.m.

note to constance/Jones:

This particular blog thread is about the irony of Sotheby's losing their case against Conrad Black because they didn't disclose that they represented both the buyer and the seller of the New York apartment. That's what is under discussion, or should be. This is Doug Bell's blog and we just visit it.

constance December 21, 2007 at 12:26 a.m.

I know about how the trial ended but by the case I mean what you said JONES, interesting current events not insults. To me this is a fascinating period before Mr Black goes to jail and so I wonder why some people especially just insult others. Maybe they have nothing else to do with their time.

dr December 21, 2007 at 2:53 a.m.

Herman Goering...

Fintan December 21, 2007 at 3:05 a.m.

Where is Roger, I've kind of gotten used to reading his comments first thing in the morning when I log on.

PG seems to have forgotten to sign the post "For Fintan" @ 5.12 pm. Not quite sure what the message is, though. In fact, I only just heard about the court verdict.

What is the problem with it? It's only a few years since thousands of people, including several of my friends, were imprisoned for years WITHOUT TRIAL in Northern Ireland. Kind of a rehearsal for Guantanamo.

Now, it seems, an accused person has been found not guilty of a terrible crime and is a free man.

The fact that the justice system in Northern Ireland now recognises that a person is innocent until proven guilty is something that all democratically minded people should applaud. The prosecution failed utterly to present evidence that a court and jury could accept. The persons who perpetrated the Omagh atrocity should be brought to justice, but if the authorities cannot find them, framing a few innocent ones is not a good substitute, no matter how well it may play with the kinds of newspapers that reflect His Lardship's views.

His Lardship, by contrast, was convicted by a jury, on the evidence, albeit of crimes that pale into insignificance beside blowing the heart out of a largish town.

Lit 200 December 21, 2007 at 8:40 a.m.

Fintan: your post is a tad naive. The Omagh bombing was a cold-blooded attack on civilians carried out by a splinter of the IRA. The only reason there's a trial at all today is because of pressure from the families of the victims. Nobody wants to find the perps at this stage and risk opening up more bloodshed. Everybody knows Sean Hoey is guilty of callous, bloody murder. And the 56 innocent dead? Martyrs to the cause of hoped-for peace. And the trial? A travesty of justice.

Lit 200 December 21, 2007 at 8:48 a.m.

Beg pardon, 29 innocent dead.

topics December 21, 2007 at 9:20 a.m.

This blog in many ways has lost its purpose. There is one pro-black's blogger under two names. There are anti-black's two women and one male hatred messenger from the middle east, and the odd male. Are there no other topics
in Torornto?

ja b3 December 21, 2007 at 9:23 a.m.

Lit may well be right on Sean, but really, given Lit's pose re. the Black trial, his post is quite surprising.
Is this the same Lit who has lectured us on daring to think that Conrad Black is a criminal? Presumption of innocence, blah, blah blah. "Corporate kleptocracy" a big lie. "Prosecutorial overkill" and pressure brought to bear by disgruntled shareholders the only reason there was a trial of the very dignified Con. Con railroaded, railroaded, railroaded.
No doubt his supporters were and are saying the same of the acquitted IRA guy.
Does Lit support attempts to "turn" members of the IRA, or would he consider any such one turned worthy of a place in Dante's Hell, like Radler?

I note that Lit is glad of Black's victory against Sotheby's, but says nothing about Black's various lawyers' double standard as to fine print being or not being adequate notification.

Lit is a Black partisan, not a disinterested observer whose only commitments are to logic and justice.

Leaf is another such one, since she never points out the contradictions of posters on this blog who support Black, only the contrdictions of posters who are critical of Black.

Move December 21, 2007 at 9:28 a.m.

Judging from the number of bloggers posting on this blog, the number of people reading Toronto Life is not more than the number of people who purchased Conrad's 989 page book of Richard M Nixon. Time to move on.

Fintan December 21, 2007 at 9:34 a.m.

Lit 200: "Everybody knows Sean Hoey is guilty of callous, bloody murder. And the 56 innocent dead? Martyrs to the cause of hoped-for peace. And the trial? A travesty of justice."

Correction, not everyone knows that. I for one do not know whether or not he did it, and the trial judge set him free. Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence you demand for His Lardship, despite the evidence presented against him and still after his conviction? If the prosecution had been able to bring a fraction as much evidence against him as their counterparts in Chicago brought against His Lardship, Mr. Hoey would have been away for a very long time.

This would be an excellent opportunity for the Twit to demonstrate the courage of its convictions and make the same allegations against Mr. Hoey without the cover of anonymity.

Then it might join the others against whom, according to the latest TV news bulletin I've seen, Mr. Hoey plans to take legal action.

The Twit is seriously mistaken if it believes the British judiciary allows itself to be swayed by the Government.

As for the trial being, as it says, "a travesty of justice", the judge launched a scathing attack on the police and prosecution. Read about it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Irela...

The judge spoke of a range of unsatisfactory aspects of the case against the defendant, including "mendacious" (that means lying) police officers who were proved to have "beefed up" evidence and then lied in court to cover their tracks, evidence which was lost, misfiled and stored in a "thoroughly disorganised" fashion, expert testimony that was "no more than speculative" and DNA material which had been so amateurishly collected and stored as to be valueless - the judge had no alternative but to acquit Hoey on all counts.

He pointed to what he described as the "cardinal principle" of the law: "Justice according to law demands proper evidence. By that we mean not merely evidence which might be true and to a considerable extent probably is true, [but which] reaches the standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt."

And no one did a Black and removed boxes of material from a police station, either, so they should have still had all the evidence they ever came across.

There have been too many cases of British courts acting in the way the Twit would like them to - resulting in cases like the "Birmingham Six" (16 years in the hoosegow on cooked up evidence before that wrongdoing was uncovered) and several other placename + number combinations.

There are some who would like to see the peace process founder. But it is going strong and those who try to sabotage it, like the Omagh bombers and those who take the Zit's cynical view are out of step with the times.

(Contd.)

Fintan December 21, 2007 at 9:38 a.m.

As for the 56 "innocent dead", the death toll was actually 29 plus unborn twins, and are not all victims of bombings of civilian targets "innocent"?

For the Twit to imply that I lack sympathy for them, and all of the other victims in the nearly 30 years of conflict, is a rather nasty little implication. And I prefer to believe that the scale of the atrocity strengthened and accelerated the peace process rather than wrecking it. Thus their deaths may not have been entirely in vain nor served the ignoble purpose that the Twit mentions.

Incidentally, if Canadians are looking for compatriots to be proud of instead of crooked press barons, they could take General De Chastelain as an example.

Lit 200 December 21, 2007 at 10:40 a.m.

Rats! I was almost finished a point by point rebuttal to Fintan when I lost everything.

Rats!

Anyway, to conflate the Conrad Black trial and the Sean Hoey trial is, excuse me, a lot of hooey.

I did not imply you lacked sympathy. I said you were naive in thinking Hoey was innocent. That's not an implication, that's what I said.

You want to go back to the Birmingham Six? Why not further? There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.

De Chastelain: Canadians do revere him for his work on the interntional commission that led to the decommissioning of the IRA, despite the fact that he was blamed for "lack of leadership" for the actions of criminals in Canada's Special Forces under his command in Somalia.

I immediately corrected my error on the number of dead in Omagh. You frequently make typos too, Fintan, but I refrain from calling you on them because I don't want to take cheep shouts (there are a couple more you can call me on).

Thanks for the lesson on mendacity but, surprise, I already knew that word. I remember having to look it up when I read Tennessee Williams Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, wherein Big Daddy had cause to reference the smell of it.

You and Jab accuse me of bias. Could be, it is difficult to notice it in yourself but that comment could easily be applied to both of you, too.

I am pro Black, if that's the right word, because of you two and the others: all the new left zealots who are only too willing to ridicule the man, his wife, his family, his lifestyle, his attainments, to the point of relishing his hoped-for suffering.

Enough of this.

Oh. And your disingenuous invitation for me to reveal my name and address on this blog? Are you out of your gourd?

Fintan December 21, 2007 at 11:12 a.m.

I guess I was wrong when I thought the Zit was a sock puppet of Morticia, Steyn or one of their acolytes.

Now I've been set right: "I am pro Black, if that's the right word, because of you two and the others: all the new left zealots who are only too willing to ridicule the man, his wife, his family, his lifestyle, his attainments, to the point of relishing his hoped-for suffering."

I see! The Twit's position is not based on any actual principles or philosophy, but just intended to be contrary to others. Does one need to be a "new left zealot" to ridicule all the things mentioned? Are Donna and Roger "new left zealots"? If they are, they've surely fooled me.

Surely anyone with a sense of decency disapproves of theft, whilst the comic opera antics of His Lardship and Morticia are truly worthy of ridicule - although at the same time, in a way, a rare redeeming feature in them. I have not ridiculed Black's family, by the way, and feel rather sorry for them. As for His Lardship's attainments, should I aspire to a jail sentence and financial ruin just to be as good as him?

My invitation to you to reveal your name and address was rhetorical, as you well know. The point I was merely making was that you, a staunch defender of Black's rights, anonymously accuse a man of callous murder within hours of his acquittal by a court in a democratic European country.

His Lardship (convicted) is innocent and Mr. Hoey (acquitted) is guilty. There sure ain't no justice in the poor Twit's world.

On another matter, they say the Governator in California is going to release 20,000 prisoners to save money. Maybe His Lardship should hope Bush copies this idea on a federal level.

Fintan December 21, 2007 at 11:14 a.m.

Back tomorrow: I'm off to see La Bohème at the National Opera. Be nice to each other.

Lit 200 December 21, 2007 at 11:35 a.m.

Is Roger a new left zealot? I'll say.

As for Donna, she's just a unidimensional know-nothing.

"His Lardship (convicted) is innocent and Mr. Hoey (acquitted) is guilty."

Hey! You got it! Good for you Fintan.

And the fact is -- and I base this comment on the quality of your posts on this blog -- you could double your attainments and your-oft mentioned closeness to important folks, and you would still be far, far behind the intellectual abilities and contacts of Conrad M Black.

However, enjoy Puccini's La Boheme. Like it too although I prefer the arias in Madama Butterfly. Better Bathos.

JONES December 21, 2007 at 12:56 p.m.

dr constance

Dr you are right. You win a dream vacation. Two weeks in a cell beside Conrad Black. Sorry to disappoint you but his Lardship will never see the inside of a jail. He knows too much. He infiltrated that inner circle who know certain things like who really shot JFK. (bring it on) and Constance no insults were intented. My posts are trying to make these people on here realize we have been "had". Black is still not in jail. Must I say this again in March?

leaf December 21, 2007 at 1:15 p.m.

Ok, I have a little unfinished business with the blond detective.
A new thread is hardly a mistrial, is it?

So, here are 3 easy questions that need answering. Multiple choice even, 1 word answer.

No comment needed from BBC, no evading or changing subject allowed.
A 1 word answer in each case.
Questions will be repeated until answered.
Thank you and good luck!

#1 - Lit200 thinks that jade_lee writes like Donna. And yet jade_lee has never mentioned excrement or dwarfs. She is clearly not Donna.
are you trying to be funny or are you being serious?

A – funny
B – serious

#2 - This may be the internet but that’s no reason or excuse to act like a jerk, just because you can, is it?


A – yes
B – no

#3 - are you saying you represent all women BBC?

A – yes
B – no

Lorraine in Ottawa December 21, 2007 at 1:51 p.m.

I have read a good deal about the Black trial for the past number of months, including the Breeden report. I come onto this blog from time to time to catch up on whether there are any interesting pieces of insight or information. I have a Canadian legal background, but am not very familiar with the US system. I have two points to make here:

To Billy - I like the way you think and write. You are obviously an intelligent and well-educated person. Will you send me an email so that I may "converse" with you further on the Black case? I might not be able to get back to you for a few weeks, but I will contact you, if you write : lorrainenor@yahoo.ca

To Roger - I have really enjoyed the information and intelligence expressed in your posts. I read one some threads back where you mentioned having been more or less "spat upon" by Canadians in Europe and for this, I am truly sorry. I apologise to you on their behalf.
Best wishes of the Season to all.

Maiden December 21, 2007 at 2:15 p.m.

The Maiden of Lorraine who takes upon herself the sins of Canadians in Europe who spat on rogers. How touching. The maiden requests email address but is unable to reply to them for weeks because she is in battle against the Canadians in Europe whp spat on rogers. How brave. Bloggers are shedding tear for Roger's Maiden.

jade_lee December 21, 2007 at 2:19 p.m.

I am not donna, have never been a donna and think that it's hilarious that you imply that I am donna. I am simply someone who, like many Canadians, thought CB was a jerk to throw away his Canadian Citizenship for a title.....it was a insult to think that he could be so shallow of a Canadian and I also tend to read copious amounts of material and the CB indictment caught my interest.
I am confident that I have made some very valid points here with respect to the conviction and the experience CB can look forward to in prison. If that makes me Donnaish to you lit than so be it.
Merry Christmas to all

jade_lee December 21, 2007 at 2:21 p.m.

Lit/leaf....same difference to me it appears. Birds of a feather they say.....

leaf December 21, 2007 at 2:29 p.m.

blondie, if you like my questions we can go out on a date. im obsessed with you.

leaf December 21, 2007 at 2:33 p.m.

Blond in BC, I think about you all the time. please go out with me. i m all alone at christmas.

wave99 December 21, 2007 at 4:59 p.m.

Jab,

It's only natural for when one is positioned as Lit,Leaf and myself have been thus far, that when an opportunity to express pleasure in a Black triumph can and inevitably will be, misconstrued as a partisan view.

You could say disagreeing with the court in this situation is, at the very least, partisan as well and certainly more hypocritical.

And it reflects beyond the rational over-view of examining case logistics to decipher right from wrong.

It reflects a base want for Black to lose at everything regardless of due process.

And that is the siren call of the vast majority of anti's.

wave99 December 21, 2007 at 5:06 p.m.

God bless you Lorraine.

You are a true hero and apparantly, you know it too.

wave99 December 21, 2007 at 8:25 p.m.

Jade/Barb/Kelly/Donna/Roger.

Same difference to me.

jab3 December 22, 2007 at 12:44 p.m.

wave--I did not include you or shareholder in the leaf and Lit category of disingenuous bloggers.

FYI case by case examination does not mean one abandons what one has proclaimed to be one's basic principles in approaching matters of justice involving two different cases: e.g. presumption of innocence with respect to Sean and Conrad; nor does it mean applying a double standard to rules of evidence depending on whether the standard works for Black in one case and against Black in another.

Lit, when called out on his dissembled bias on commenting on the Black case, reverts to red-baiting. Well, in contrast to Lit, shareholder and wave and some of the bloggers critical of Black on this blog appear to have been honest and relatively consistent in their basic principles, at least in approaching this case. As for making fun of Black (and Amiel--I agree that public comments on Black's children, including his own comments in his sentencing pleading, have been generally inappropriate): Even Bill Buckley and his friends are making fun, "smiling at the impiety of it all", of Black. No-one short of the looney far far right would call Bill Buckley new left.