Black Watch: Today’s Top Stories
Posted on December 13, 2007 by Douglas Bell
Watching Brian Mulroney ooze through his testimony before a federal ethics committee this morning had a certain surreal quality, given that only three days before, his name was raised in a Chicago courtroom as an avatar of probity, his letter providing proof positive of Conrad Black’s impeccable character and unsuitability for incarceration. Weird.
Coverage this morning brings news of yet another victory lap through Muddy York by Black’s tormentor-in-chief, Eric Sussman. Last time we observed him, his mien in the face of the prosecution’s diminishing returns was verging on whining desperation. This time, he’s in town to crow before a conference of fraud investigators (hilarity no doubt ensuing). He took the opportunity to dress down our justice system for failing to provide him with sufficient ammunition to do Lord Black et al. in even further. Paul Waldie reports Sussman’s beef:
“‘We wanted to put as much evidence as we possibly could in front of the jury and, as it turned out, there were certain pieces of evidence [from Canada] that we just weren’t able to have access to…and so I think that’s difficult,’ he said. The difficulties are ‘something that Canadian law enforcement and the Canadian public are going to have to address themselves.’”
Over to you, “Canadian public.”
And while the Brits seem hell-bent on revoking Lord Black’s peerage, it’s reported in this morning’s Star that we’ll at least wait for the appeal to strip him of his Order of Canada. And still no word on his Privy Council status.
And way, way off to the side, it seems Tom Bower has run into a spot of bother with British media mogul Richard Desmond. Desmond’s suing Bower over comments he made about Desmond in his book about Black. Given that Desmond hates Black and vice versa, it just goes to show that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Prosecutor disturbed by Black's defiance: Source [The Globe and Mail]
Black keeps Order of Canada for now: Source [Toronto Star]
Desmond sues Black biographer: Source [Guardian]
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dr December 13, 2007 at 7 p.m.
Mr. Bell, do not be too hard on Mr. Sussman et al. Consider this. Chances are his/their parents, grandparents, or great grandparents were poor immigrants to America. He/they was most likely raised in the Jewish tradition of justice and empathy, and probably are left of centre liberals. He/they have to come up against a slimeball like Conrad Black who with the aid of tens of millions of dollars of high-priced lawyers does everything he can do to thwart the application of justice. I would be a little pissed off also!
BBQ December 13, 2007 at 7:09 p.m.
Wow what a melt down of the pro-Black choir (all three). I almost forgot there was even a trial. With a verdict. And a sentence. Black may buy a round before jail, sure, wait a year, eventually it will come. It might be less that 6.5 , may-be three but it will be something. And face it, if Radler isn't going to walk, it's going to be pretty hard letting Black off the hook. Still I guess out of courtesy this blog will have to continue until the big door finally swings shut. To the pro-Black choir I highly recommend watching 'The Fall' -- a good look at the last days of the Third Reich. Of course that whole delusional thing can probably be explained.
2 eddies December 13, 2007 at 8:17 p.m.
I see Sussman was in Toronto shooting off about the trial difficulties. God they were incompetent. Our guy was as guilty as sin and they only got him on 4 counts.
Lit 200 December 13, 2007 at 8:24 p.m.
2 eddies December 13, 2007 at 8:17 p.m.
I see Sussman was in Toronto shooting off about the trial difficulties. God they were incompetent. Our guy was as guilty as sin and they only got him on 4 counts.
-----------
And three of them won't stand up on appeal.
Lit 200 December 13, 2007 at 8:27 p.m.
My God Mulrooney is a swmarmy SOB. How did the Tories ever let him rise to the top? Must have been Liberal incompetence.
2 eddies December 13, 2007 at 9:02 p.m.
Lit 200 "--three of them won't stand up on appeal."
I talked to Frey. I sent him a copy of your post. He likes your confidence. Says he's looking for a few good men learned in the law like you.
2 eddies December 13, 2007 at 9:30 p.m.
Lit said: "My God Mulrooney is a swmarmy SOB"
Puleeze, not so loud Lit 200 - We used him as a character reference for our guy.
ROGER December 13, 2007 at 10:51 p.m.
WOW, THEY ARE FALLING FAST AND FURIOUS NOW! Fujimori is in jail, facing more charges, Mulroney is squirming and bobbing and ducking and sweating on the hot seat, Baird is caught in the Ottawa mayoralty criminality in addition to cutting and running in Bali; Harper is caught up in a nuclear meltdown; Schreiber is explaining how a foreign government (Bavaria) bankrolled and plotted the overthrow of a Canadian political leader and replacing him with "their guy" Mulroney who they then owned when he became PM! And if that is not enough, the mess in Afghanistan is getting bigger and the political prop Hillier is running off at the mouth on CBC, probably going to get Harper in even more trouble! Then there is Harper kissing and necking with Mario Dumont, leader of the Jean Marie Le Pen party of Canada! I wonder whether the Government of Bavaria or some other foreign government (USA?) is bankrolling Harper? And then there is that moneylaundering by Harper's CONservatives that is smoldering away in the background. We live in interesting times.
If we had an American style justice system, Mulroney would have been in shackles and an orange jumpsuit for his appearance today.
ROGER December 13, 2007 at 11:02 p.m.
HOW STRONG IS A DEMOCRACY WHERE A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT CAN OVERTHROW A FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND REPLACE HIM FOR $25k?
How cheap do our politicians come? Imagine, one can buy a Canadian PM for $300K! And there I was thinking that it would take millions of dollars to even get a favour out of one, let alone own him! At least it took hundreds of millions of dollars to buy Helmut Kohl! Imagine, the French socialist Francois Mitterand was involved in the scheme to funnel a slush fund to Kohl's rightwing conservative CDU through a moneylaundering scheme involving the then East German communists! LOL! Western democracy at work! So what kind of democracy and democratic values are these scumbag Western governments trying to ram down the throats of Afghans? Graft, corruption and vote buying is well-known to Afghans--they don't need anymore. They also know all about war and don't need anymore. They already have enough weapons to keep blood flowing for a long time. So what do we send them? Heavily armed soldiers to wage war! I think the Western governments need to bring all their troops home and clean up the criminality and corruption and restore democracy in these countries before even dreaming of telling anyone else how to run their countries! Besides, Karzai's whole government is made up of rapists, murderers and war criminals! Those are our allies!
Billy December 13, 2007 at 11:18 p.m.
Roger, you're too hard on Mulroney. In accepting cash in a brown paper bag in a hotel room with a shyster he admits he made an error in judgment for which he takes full responsibility. What a man!!
ROGER December 13, 2007 at 11:20 p.m.
THE AMERICAN SYSTEM OF JUSTICE IS NO BETTER THAN ANY OTHER SYSTEMS. IT IS JUST DIFFERENT.
The key thing is whether the people who live under a system of law believe in their system or not regardless of how outsiders view their system. If there were perfection in a system, then one could seek to export it, but there is no such thing. Each system of justice has strengths and weaknesses and has a unique history and culture behind it.
ROGER December 13, 2007 at 11:28 p.m.
MULRONEY'S DEALINGS BEGINE MANY YEARS BEFORE HE EVER ENTERED POLITICS
How does Mulroney go from being a labour lawyer to heading up a company for the sole purpose of laying everyone off and shutting down an entire town? Mulroney's relationship with Schreiber and the skin-crawling revolting Minister-president of Bavaria is mindboggling! A foreign power has engage in what is essentially an act of war with its interference in Canadian politics and you think it is minor? If a Canadian government did the same thing with Germany, do you wish to know how they would interpret it? In Germany, when an ordinary citizen deals with a government official, even a lowly office worker or postal worker, that official is fully aware that they represent the state and expects deference from you the citizen! The power of the state cannot be challenged or it will be put down harshly--read some of Germany's laws (yes, I am speaking of West Germany included!) for what the power of the state is and how they view it as unassailable. Yet here we have Schreiber, a former German secret service agent, acting on behalf and in collaboration with a German state president and former German defence minister to undermine and alter Canadian federal politics and we say nothing?
jade_lee December 13, 2007 at 11:43 p.m.
So Mulroney stated today that he was not hard up for cash when he left office, so what about the selling of the furniture, what was that all about? Mila just wanted the cash?
I could go on and on poking holes in his testimony but why bother, I am enjoying watching our elected clowns get caught up in all the Mulroney rhetoric, I really like the french liberal member of the ethics committee who is asking the difficult questions. Figures Mulroney is suing the one guy who fed Mulroney's lawyers something to address in preparation....soon the scripted stuff will be finished and Mulroney will have to rely on his personal facts.......very interesting stuff and once again the RCMP is involved. I thought it was funny how Mulroney claimed he sued the government......he sued the RCMP, hardly what we Canadians view as government....more like civil servant law enforcement. Time to Clean the RCMP up, again. I suspect there are many who, if they could afford the legal fees, would love to sue the RCMP.
Oh and that was another thing, MUlroney stating that he did not see a dime of the 2.1 million.....that cash paid his legal fees. Joe citizen rarely has the luxury to have his legal fees paid for him. lol CB had Holinger paid for most of his legal fees but he ain't joe citizen either.....yes intended.
ROGER December 13, 2007 at 11:55 p.m.
MULRONEY WAS PAID DAMAGES on top of his legal expenses! How did we end up with such a sleazy crook as out prime minister? Look no further than the Conservative Party of Canada--they brought us Mulroney. The crooks in the Liberal Party were about slush funds for elections. The crooks in the CON party were about Black lifestyle! Franz-Joseph Strauss would have loved this comedy. On a trip to NY, Strauss, a prominent W-German politician from conservative Catholic Bavaria, lost his wallet while out carousing and visiting brothels and streetwalkers--Strauss just laughed the whole thing off! At that point I think he was actually defence minister. That such a man as Strauss could be involved in Canadian internal politics makes the skin crawl. Many in W Germany viewed Strauss as one of the most dangerous politicians in the entire 20th century history of Germany (yes, including WW 1 and 2)! And he was meddling in and bankrolling Mulroney's politics! Disgusting!
Marilyn December 14, 2007 at 2:56 a.m.
Ethics committee members -- and the media covering the Mulroney testimony on Thursday -- should not have been surprised by Mulroney's admission that he received $225,000 from Schrieber, not the $300,000 claimed by Schrieber. The $225,000 figure is not news; it was revealed almost two years ago (Feb. 8, 2006) by the CBC's Fifth Estate, in a program entitled "Money, Truth and Spin." In that program, the $225,000 figured was revealed in a letter sent by former Mulroney advisor Pat MacAdam to author William Kaplan in the summer of 2004. Here's the link: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/moneytruthandspi...
respect December 14, 2007 at 9:58 a.m.
I have listened with respect to the hon brian mulroney presentation at the ethics committee. I was impressed by brian, he came accross as believable, well prepared, intelligent and carried himself as a former prime minister.
I resent the post by immigrants (rogers) who came here and denigrate our governemnt. They should be grateful that they are allowed in here, they should go back in the boat they came and preach their poison over there. But they are cowards and abuse Canada's tolerance.
As far as our local breed (jad-loe or what ever), you and your kind are so stupid (ndp)with an IQ of 12 that nothing more is expected from you. Fortunately, others here have done the work for you that you are now enjoying.
The Pro-Blacks here should shup-up because Conrad ask for a letter of reference from Brian. In fact if there was one person who could have helped Conrad to return to canada, it was Brian. Now that is out of the question. the Pro-Blacks
are screwed.
Regarding the memebers of the committee they have failed, because they were conned by schriber. Schriber allegedly perjured himself and the whole affair is over. The chair is aking for the cancellation of the inquiry. These MP's are vulgar bullies a disgrace to their office.
Hiawata December 14, 2007 at 10:11 a.m.
respect has got it right about immigrants: "They should be grateful that they are allowed in here, they should go back in the boat they came and preach their poison over there."
Just what I said when the palefaces arrived. But would anyone listen to me?
Billy December 14, 2007 at 10:21 a.m.
To respect -- Roger didn't denigrate our government - his issue is with the government leadership. A series of incompetents or scumbags, sometimes both at once, makes this a legitimate issue.
As for your opinion of Brian, well you're entitled to it but "believable", no, you'd be in a real minority. Brian was broke we he left politics -- 4 kids in private school, an expensive wife and no job -- he needed cash, so much the better if it could go undeclared. I like him but I'm very disappointed because he's played right into the hands of many who at the time, 20 + years ago, didn't trust him.
He should be left alone however.
toilet December 14, 2007 at 10:39 a.m.
hiawata, every time you need to go to the toilet water-closet to release your personal excrement, be thankful to the pale face, the toilet water-closet came from England.
billy,you are correct, he did need the money. But isn't that more forgivable, than the Conrad's systematic looting to live a high life?
leaf December 14, 2007 at 10:46 a.m.
see, i'm back. got a hug last night and feeling good. now i'm writing as toilet as well. that name is just me.
shareholder December 14, 2007 at 11:39 a.m.
The APC deal transferred money from Hollinger Int'l to the accounts of Black, Radler, Atkinson and Boultbee without the benefit of backdated or after-the-fact approvals inserted into documents and slid by the audit committee and/or the board. Jim Macdougal (last thread)
You're wrong here Jim, those APC payments did recieve audit committee aproval, all 3 signed off on it, further that money was never diverted from Hollinger International. It was bonuses paid through Inc. from Ravelston per the executives conttracts rendered as a NC so to avoid taxes, the group also went to painstaking efforts to consult with and get approval from outside legal counsel and acounting firms, their NC's were to not compete with the companies asstets upon termination or resignation, again a real agreement and no shareholder money was diverted from Hollinger International the US Public company.
Sussman is a goof, I read he had the boxes in the courtroom, he had everything he needed including an angry mob of imbeciles to chant in the background for Conrad's kneck. The case was weak, Black should claw back a few on appeal and when he gets out of prison, he'll have that jail house arrogance and he'll drive the haters ant anti's nuts.
Dov Zakhiem December 14, 2007 at 11:44 a.m.
I love how you stupid goyim get worked up into a tizzy over non compete agreements and 300k in a brown envelope. I stole 3 trillion dollars and now I work at one of the most prestigeous military consulting firms in America. We Zionists don't turn on eachother the way you gentile cattle do, that's whay we rule ze world.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...
Kickaha December 14, 2007 at 11:48 a.m.
An interesting look at Black's likely destination come March:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s...
The bad news for Black, assuming this is where he will be: No email or internet access, something everyone wants but no one gets. So we are not likely to hear a lot from him, at least first-hand, while he is imprisoned. Also, writing books is not permitted. And "materials" may not be shipped in. I assume that includes books, so his reading diet may be restricted to prison-library fare.
On the good side, the cons there are generally very glad to be in low security and not something more stringent, so they take care not to do anything that would get them sent to medium or worse. Sounds as if someone with people skills could do well there.
Black is not likely to receive any special treatment. While prison officials had apparently never heard of him before this week, they are now aware that there is a lot of media interest in Black in a couple of English-speaking countries... and if he were allowed communications or book-writing privileges not extended to other inmates, the warden would likely be answering some hard questions pretty fast.
222 December 14, 2007 at 11:49 a.m.
Lit 200: Agreed, Mulroney is smarmy. But he is a Conrad Black advocate, as are you.
Dov Zakhiem December 14, 2007 at 11:51 a.m.
Lit 200: Agreed, Mulroney is smarmy. But he is a Conrad Black advocate, as are you - 222
love how you stupid goyim get worked up into a tizzy over non compete agreements and 300k in a brown envelope. I stole 3 trillion dollars and now I work at one of the most prestigeous military consulting firms in America. We Zionists don't turn on eachother the way you gentile cattle do, that's whay we rule ze world.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=......
Cowboy Johnny December 14, 2007 at 12:04 p.m.
Hiawatha: Just what I said when the palefaces arrived. But would anyone listen to me?
Hey last time I checked, we fought the natives and we won, you should be happy with your casinos.
Billy December 14, 2007 at 12:28 p.m.
A good G&M post --- false bravado I'd say but par for the course. reading this made my throat swell.. spending a week there would be hell for me and I almost feel a little bad for him.
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 12:59 p.m.
Another Aussie contribution:
http://business.smh.com.au/when-the-rot-...
What is that expression...don't slag off someone who buys ink by the barrel...well, that's my mangled version of it..
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 1:08 p.m.
>Hey last time I checked, we fought the natives and we won<
Canada is a signatory to the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. Your statement is an invitation for others to take up arms and fight to take whatever they want. Do not be surprises when people act on your call to arms! To quote Will, "Do we but teach bloody instruction, which, being taught, returns to plague th'inventor?.... Blood will have blood....." or how about "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"?
To those who hate immigrants because we take your jobs, buy the houses you wish you could buy, take places in schools you wish you could get into, resent having to compete with high achieving immigrants who are very competitive and focused, resent seeing romantic partners dump you for the foreign immigrant, I wish to say I feel your misery and pain and do take a special delight in it! Please keep posting your whining laments--it is music to my ears!
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 1:16 p.m.
ONE DAY IN THE LIFE OF IVAN DENISOVITCH RELATES PRISON LIFE IN A SOVIET GULAG
That sounds more appetizing than Conrad's new home. I would not wish to serve any time in any prison, least of all one in the tropics. Florida is a bad choice. Black is very unlucky in life. Everytime he tries to be smart, he gets slapped down. I really feel sorry for him. To lose so consistently and fail at every single thing he has ever done must hurt. I am just waiting for some tabloid to announce to the world that Amiel is pregnant with another man's child! Life is so harsh on poor Conrad. What did he do to deserve this? But he suffers in silence, never showing his vulnerable side. Oh well, there will be lots of shoulders to cry on in prison.
Fintan December 14, 2007 at 1:27 p.m.
Thanks for that Australian link Kelly. A lovely piece of disrespectful comment. Love that phrase "dob in", which I assume means "finger" in the USA and "shop" or "grass" in the UK.
Food for thought that Australian journalists half way around the world got a wee whiff of rodent when they took a little closer look at His Lardship's business model as long ago as 1992, but those who were supposed to be monitoring the business smelled only power and perks for themselves and let him get away with daylight (or actually 24/7) robbery.
ROGER, right on! But you'll have to admit that Cowboy Johnny is at least original. Without the English, there would be no flush toilets in the world. Indeed!
In fact, bathing was very much in vogue in Britain as long as the Romans were there, but then came a millennium or more of real smelliness. People never washed and never changed their clothes.
When they turned up in India (Surat) to trade in the 16th century, the locals at first gave them a wide berth, but eventually managed to get them to start washing again.
That may explain why so many words in the English language that have to do with personal hygiene are actually of Indian origin (shampoo, pyjamas, for example). There were no equivalent English words, because even the concepts had been forgotten.
The English have, of course, come a long way since then, but no less an authority as Morticia still found them smelly after her last visit to a public cinema.
Fintan December 14, 2007 at 1:29 p.m.
Thanks for that Australian link Kelly. A lovely piece of disrespectful comment. Love that phrase "dob in", which I assume means "finger" in the USA and "shop" or "grass" in the UK.
Food for thought that Australian journalists half way around the world got a wee whiff of rodent when they took a little closer look at His Lardship's business model as long ago as 1992, but those who were supposed to be monitoring the business smelled only power and perks for themselves and let him get away with daylight (or actually 24/7) robbery.
ROGER, right on! But you'll have to admit that Cowboy Johnny is at least original. Without the English, there would be no flush toilets in the world. Indeed!
In fact, bathing was very much in vogue in Britain as long as the Romans were there, but then came a millennium or more of real smelliness. People never washed and never changed their clothes.
When they turned up in India (Surat) to trade in the 16th century, the locals at first gave them a wide berth, but eventually managed to get them to start washing again.
That may explain why so many words in the English language that have to do with personal hygiene are actually of Indian origin (shampoo, pyjamas, for example). There were no equivalent English words, because even the concepts had been forgotten.
The English have, of course, come a long way since then, but no less an authority than Morticia still found them smelly after her last visit to a public cinema.
2 the point in the joint December 14, 2007 at 1:45 p.m.
I think they should let Black have Internet access in the hoosegow. He could run a blog from there and it would be a source of mirth to many people for many years.
We could all learn with him as he came face to face with the practical questions of reality in the joint.
Like fart etiquette. What do you do/say when Bubba lets one rip? Nothing, laugh, reply with another, or just say "did someone call my name?"?
With all those beans in the diet, is it OK to let go near others, or should you ask permission?
These things and many more.
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 1:48 p.m.
I keep reading that the Sun-Times group spent some $100 million plus on Black's legal defense and I understand that as a senior executive he was likely entitled to that but now that he's been convicted on some charges aren't they seeking at least a partial refund? Perhaps that makes up part of their lawsuit, I'm not sure. i'd also be curious as to what level of liability coverage they had.
I've always thought that it's an odd aspect of public companies that they have to fund the defense of the very person who might have defrauded them even as they sink into financial chaos because of the bad publicity, litigation fees, etc. Granted though, allegations can be false. I'd hope they'd provide it for any finance or IR executive since they are all vulnerable too.
Cowboy Johnny December 14, 2007 at 1:48 p.m.
Roger: To those who hate immigrants because...
Get back on the boat you came on Rag head
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 1:59 p.m.
You're welcome Fintan. All the Australian coverage I've seen has been pointedly harsh - he must not have shown his winsome side there.
I too thought it was interesting that they were onto him all that time ago and you're right, these directors are often so beholden that they wouldn't know good corporate governance if it nipped them in their behinds.
Funny you should mention the bathing issue - I recently watched a documentary about the ancient temples in India (Mysteries of Asia I think) and the narrator made that same point about European explorers learning to bathe from the Hindu bathing rituals.
Immigrant December 14, 2007 at 3:02 p.m.
Cowboy Billy has a problem, because he is what we call "sala gandu" in Hindi.
But at least his sister is happy we're here.
Billy December 14, 2007 at 3:35 p.m.
Immigrant - I am not a Cowboy and don't have a sister.
Regards, Billy
Billy December 14, 2007 at 3:43 p.m.
But immigrant - I speak hindi stupid bhain chod
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 3:45 p.m.
rofl (with tears streaming down my cheeks). This blog is SOOOO worth it!!!
Immigrant December 14, 2007 at 3:47 p.m.
well searched, leaf, but i know what grates with you is that the sister i am humping is yours.
Billy December 14, 2007 at 4:05 p.m.
immigrant --- you're no fun at all - a reply lacking any clever spontaneity, unworthy of challenge. Not too swift either. leaf?
Would your alias mean you're a real immigrant or just an organism found in a new habitat?
Would you mind posting under another name?
Billy December 14, 2007 at 4:14 p.m.
Hey Kelly, its a dull day on the blog. I finished off Lit 200 with my last "2 eddies" post and now the disgraced "immigrant"
is defeated.
i did like your aussie blog. are you a girl - wanna go out?
Girl December 14, 2007 at 4:20 p.m.
are you a girl - wanna go out?
Billy, oh yes, when you grow a dick we'll spend a weekend on one of the holiday resorts on the moons of Jupiter.
Billy December 14, 2007 at 4:23 p.m.
OK
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 4:42 p.m.
Billy:
Yes, I'm a girl. The 3.35 post was hilarious, partly because I didn't realize (the now defeated) immigrant said "Cowboy Billy". 2 eddies were good too.
Thanks, but it looks like "Girl" beat me to it. :P
(Yikes!)
Billy December 14, 2007 at 4:57 p.m.
Kelly,
I'm on the rebound and wasn't thinking clearly --- for you I'll dump "Girl"
leaf December 14, 2007 at 5:22 p.m.
MEMO to fake leaf/toilet: i'm still posting on the previous thread. this one's too immature still.
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 5:23 p.m.
Hey Billy,
No problem (and thank you). I said Yikes because I'm thinking "Girl" is going to show up with a whip and a studded dog collar.
Besides, I'm saving myself for Wave99...
Billy December 14, 2007 at 5:38 p.m.
bloody Wave99, stole my last woman too
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 5:44 p.m.
Lol. He's a tough act to follow (he's going to be choking around now...)
Jim McDougald December 14, 2007 at 5:45 p.m.
Why shareholder, you're just like Conrad! Because you say it everyone else is supposed to believe it's true.
Have you got evidence that differs from the indictment and the evidence given at trial? The money was paid out by International without Audit committee approval.
I remember Conrad telling my sister and I that signing the agreement would keep Argus running according to Bud's wishes. Look how that turned out.
Conrad never showed disrepect to the prosecution, the court or the process in his recent trial in Chicago. Or so he claims; the Nazi prosecutors, the case hanging around their necks like a toilet seat and the prosecution suborning perjury notwithstanding. Conrad says it, ergo it must be true.
Shareholder, anything you can provide to support your claims? Or do we agree to disagree?
Billy December 14, 2007 at 5:59 p.m.
yeah for sure, choking the chicken I'll bet ....
now i know i've lost you
Kelly December 14, 2007 at 6:11 p.m.
Ahem...*cough, cough*. (I walked into that one)
Poor guy, he's not here to defend himself...all in good fun.
Ok, I'm off to watch a movie. Have a good one Billy.
shareholder December 14, 2007 at 7:23 p.m.
Jim
From the Chicago Tribune August 28th
When KPMG asked questions about whether the non-competes had been approved, neither of the other two Hollinger audit committee members objected, nor did they ask questions. Ms. Kravis testified she did not raise any red flags either.
"I missed it," is how she explained it in a foggy voice caused by allergies and soothed with frequent sips of water.
When Mr. Tuit pointed out that the approval of the Canwest, APC, CNHI 1 and 2 non-competes were the first items listed on the table of contents, he asked: "You missed that one, too?"
"I did," she declared without any hesitation.
"And you're saying [the board approving the fees] was wrong?" Mr. Tuit asked.
"I am," she replied.
"Are your reading habits similar to most people, front to back," Mr. Tuit questioned.
"Not necessarily," Ms. Kravis replied. "I might read parts and the other parts later. A document like this I doubt I'd read it from front to back in one sitting." And she admitted, "I can't say I read every single column and number?. I read to get a general sense."
Ms. Kravis didn't see the possibility of a pattern; she didn't read all the paperwork leading up to the meeting; she didn't participate in it but still signed off on documents she now says are inaccurate
Remember before you say Conrad Black put his cronies on the board, all three audit committee members sit, collectively on 50 of America's finest Blue chip companies as I type.
Cowboy johnny December 14, 2007 at 7:32 p.m.
Cowboy Billy has a problem, because he is what we call "sala gandu" in Hindi.
But at least his sister is happy we're here. immigrant
not my sister you lower caste dog, she can't stand boat people, neither can I
jade_lee December 14, 2007 at 7:44 p.m.
respect December 14, 2007 at 9:58 a.m.
"I resent the post by immigrants (rogers) who came here and denigrate our governemnt."
"As far as our local breed (jad-loe or what ever), you and your kind are so stupid (ndp)with an IQ of 12 that nothing more is expected from you. Fortunately, others here have done the work for you that you are now enjoying."
lol@ your kind.....Kettle meet pot (black).
How ironic that you call yourself respect. BTW edit for spelling in the future!
Barbara in BC December 14, 2007 at 8:06 p.m.
shareholder said:
"Remember before you say Conrad Black put his cronies on the board, all three audit committee members sit, collectively on 50 of America's finest Blue chip companies as I type."
In a nutshell, Capitalism has become decadent.
dr December 14, 2007 at 8:40 p.m.
Black sentence divides Canadians, but most want jail time served in U.S.
Norma Greenaway , CanWest News Service
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/nation...
Friday, December 14, 2007
OTTAWA - The vast majority of Canadians want fallen press baron Conrad Black to serve his prison time in the United States, but they are split over whether his 6 1/2-year sentence was the right call, according to a new Ipsos-Reid poll.
The poll, conducted exclusively for CanWest News Service and Global National, said almost seven in 10 Canadians (68 per cent) would be opposed to "the Canadian government allowing him to serve his time here in this country" if that was possible. Only 13 per cent said they would "strongly" support a move to allow the one-time media tycoon back to Canada to serve his sentence.
Canadians are divided, however, on Judge Amy St. Eve's decision Monday to sentence Black, 63, to 6 1/2 years in a U.S. prison. The poll said 44 per cent agreed the sentence was "about right," while 38 per cent said it was "too lenient." Only one in 10 said the sentence was "too harsh."
Pollster John Wright said the survey results suggest Black, who is a well-known personality in Canada, is not an empathetic character for most Canadians.
"When seven in 10 say 'do the time where you committed the crime,' there isn't really any sympathy for him,"_Wright said in an interview Friday. "It certainly closes the door - from a public opinion point of view - to any kind of deal being made to bring him back into this country...
perplexed December 14, 2007 at 9:33 p.m.
Tubby deserves jail based on the vanity, greed and avarice that have characterized his entire life, including this event - the illegal hiving out of shareholders' money as soon as saw the need for a new flow of cash to fund his flamboyant, excessive lifestyle.
His reckless behavior has long been a source of concern and question even among his friends. Tubby got less time than he deserved.
Jeanne December 14, 2007 at 9:40 p.m.
Thank you dr. That polling info is interesting. For my own part, mostly through reading their writings for many years, I have concluded Black and his second wife are vicious, mean-spirited, self-indulgent and cold-hearted people. Your polling info indicates that you can't fool the Canadian people all the time, and maybe not even most of the time. Good for them/us.
Jeanne December 14, 2007 at 9:55 p.m.
And back to Bell's post in this thread. We now know that the former Canadian Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney (pronounced Mulroooooney) who wrote a character reference for Conrad Black:
a) took cash in envelopes from arms-dealer Karlheinz Schreiber (although Mulroo says it was less cash than Shreiber says it was - helloooo Revenue Canada, possible under-reporting of income in those years-later Mulroo tax returns?)
b) wouldn't say what the money was for (although he really regrets taking it now)
c) didn't explain why it took him years to report his income from this source
d) has destroyed all his paper records (if he actually ever kept any - would you?) about about these brown-envelope transactions.
Nice.
I do hope Mila Mulroney will do the right thing and have Barbara Amiel over often to the Mulroneys' Palm Beach home while Conrad is "away". The two women have so much in common...ohhh those darned wayward, pilfering husbands. Still, can't get ahead without them....
hammerhim December 14, 2007 at 9:56 p.m.
he started our stealing exams, gradually moving up to stealing pensions, culminating in stealing shareholders' money. and some defend him?
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:16 p.m.
THE GERMANS NEEDED MULRONEY TO SELL TANKS TO THE FRENCH, RUSSIANS AND CHINESE???
Thyssen is an old German company which was heavily involved in arming the Nazi Wehrmacht war machine and Old Man Thyssen was charged at Nuremberg, then brought back by the Americans to fight commies. But Thyssen has strong ties around the world, especially to the former East Bloc, as do many German companies, as well as to China and France.
That is what Mulroney claims. Germany, often in rivalry with America over the past 2 decades as the largest exporting nation on earth--yes, they were ahead of China, and might still be, in total monetary value of exports--needs Mulroney to sell?
Consider this, during the period Mulroney makes this claim, it was the end of the Cold War and there was supposed to be a peace dividend with a steep decline in military spending. Russia and the old USSR had a surplus of tanks/armoured carriers of the type Schreiber was trying to peddle. France is one of the world's largest arms exporters, not exactly looking for tanks/armoured cars. As for China, why would they want to buy low-tech armour from Mulroney?
Consider this, Germany and France have a special relationship ever since the detente between these two traditional enemies following 1945. They were the founders of the EU (the precedessor EEC). Kohl and Mitterand were in power, the same two who were involved with each other in a secret slush fund deal--why would they need Mulroney as a go-between when they were in each other's beds?
As for Germany and Russia, recall that there are strong ties between Germany and Russia, with trade links that date back to the Hansa League, nearly a thousand year of formal trading ties! When Angela Merkel meets Putin, for example, they speak to each other in Russian--Merkel is fluent. Rightwing conservative Germans eagerly did business in the East Bloc during the Cold War. What does Mulroney know and what were his contacts compared to Thyssen's or other Germans? Zilch!
Mulroney's claims stretch credibility.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:30 p.m.
GERMANY'S CHANCELLOR WENT TO CHINA ON A TRADE MISSION A FEW YEARS AGO
Gerhardt Schroeder went to China to drum up business and gave the Chinese nearly $1 billion toward a high speed magnetic levitation train in order to stimulate Sino-German trade. The Chinese naturally expect heads of government to visit to consolidate business deals.
To think that a large German company like Thyssen would send an idiot like Mulroney to China to speak on their behalf is ludicrous! "Hello, I am Brian, former Prime Minister of Canada, here to sell German products to you Chinese." Sure. Chretien perhaps, who at least had an audience in the Great Hall, but even then, it would be a stretch. Sure, business in Kazakhstan, but protocol conscious China? Never.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:33 p.m.
MULRONEY WAS PEDDLING INFLUENCE RIGHT HERE IN CANADA--THAT IS THE ONLY THING THE GERMANS WERE INTERESTED IN. Any other claims are ridiculous. Mulroney was not registered as a lobbyist in Canada.
At least $20 million was paid in bribes in Canada. Who was on the recipient list? Schreiber needs to produce the list.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:39 p.m.
WHY WOULD FRANZ-JOSEF STRAUSS NEED MULRONEY TO CUT DEALS IN THE EAST BLOC?
Strauss, rightwing conservative former Minster-praesident of Bavaria, former German defence minister, had after all cut a bail-out with the former East German government with a transfer of billions of dollars to the East Germans, which allowed the Wall to remain years longer than it otherwise would have! This Strauss, with all his contacts and grateful commies in the East Bloc needed Mulroney to speak to the Soviets and Russians? Huh? No, it is beyond humorous. Such a farce presumes Canadians are dumb fools. Mulroney is insulting our intelligence. I wonder what the German press will make of these clown.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:43 p.m.
I DON'T SEE MULRONEY MENTIONED HERE:
>ThyssenKrupp chief executive Dr Ekkehard Schulz said he was certain that not only Germany, but many countries would follow the Chinese example.
It has taken German and Chinese scientists and engineers two and a half years to complete the maglev line at a cost of about 10 billion yuan ($1.2 billion), according to Xinhua.
The Transrapid consortium, which includes the German government as well as Siemens and ThyssenKrupp, is keen to win further projects in China for its maglev technology. <
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asi...
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:48 p.m.
>Putin takes tour of German high-speed rail
(Agencies)
Updated: 2004-12-21 21:49
HAMBURG, Germany - German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder took Russian President Vladimir Putin on a high-speed train trip Tuesday in a display of technology that German companies would like to sell to Russia.
The 70-mile trip took the leaders from Hamburg to the northern town of Schleswig, the last stop in two days of formal German-Russian talks focused on boosting economic ties.
Schroeder and his wife, Doris Schroeder-Koepf, who adopted a 3-year-old Russian girl this summer, invited Putin to their private home in Hanover afterward. The Russian leader was scheduled to depart late Tuesday.
<
Mulroney wasn't here either. Why would ThyssenKrupp need Mulroney here? What could he add?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc...
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 10:55 p.m.
IN THE HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FRANCE AND GERMANY, CAN ONE IMAGINE MULRONEY PLAYING ANY ROLE WHATSOEVER IN AN ARMS DEAL BETWEEN THE TWO NATIONS?
>France and Germany have not yet found an appropriate role in the EU of twenty-five. The couple h as the potential to provide good leadership, however, and they have a huge asset—experience. Their experience with solving problems in a European context can create a sense of legitimacy for the Franco-German couple in an enlarged European Union. If the couple fails to define its new role in the EU, its EU partners may conclude that Franco-German relations have been an element of European integration that is no longer necessary. <
http://www.aicgs.org/analysis/francogerm...
Mulroney is indeed a clown to suggest he could contemplate playing any role whatsoever in a trade deal which would inevitably have to involved both the governments of France and Germany--arms are bought and sold in this instance between governments. Why would they need Mulroney? Why would ThyssenKrupp need Mulroney as a salesman? It is ridiculous.
Billy December 14, 2007 at 11:05 p.m.
So Roger, what was the Mulroney-Shreiber $300,000 deal about?
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:14 p.m.
I don't know. If I knew, I would have written a book. William Kaplan wrote two books and never found out anything. Now Kaplan says an inquiry is not needed! I think we do not need Kaplan.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:16 p.m.
STEVIE CAMERON IS THE ONLY REAL HEROINE IN THIS MESS
>Formerly with the Globe and Mail newspaper and CBC Television's investigative news programme, the fifth estate, Cameron is best known for her 1994 book On the Take: Crime, Corruption and Greed in the Mulroney Years, an exposé of alleged corruption in the Progressive Conservative government of Brian Mulroney which alleged that, as Prime Minister of Canada, Mulroney accepted "kickbacks" from Karlheinz Schreiber in what has become known as the Airbus affair. The book also described several other seamy episodes from the Mulroney years. The book won several Canadian awards, and sold very well.
Cameron became the focus of a campaign by Mulroney's defenders to discredit the allegations against him.
In 2004, the The Globe and Mail turned the tables on its former investigative reporter by running a series of articles claiming that Cameron had worked as a confidential informant for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police during its investigation of the Airbus affair. Cameron has vigorously denied the allegations which, if true, would compromise her credibility as a journalist<
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:19 p.m.
JEANNE IS PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT THE UNDER-REPORTING OF TAXABLE INCOME.
I hope Revenue Canada is investigating! The RCMP is no damn good at doing anything except shooting guys in the back of the head for drinking in public! We need a special prosecutor.
Billy December 14, 2007 at 11:21 p.m.
Well I had always liked Mulroney and his major policies, but I'm very disappointed. It was obvious he was hiding something, confirmed by the six years it took him to report the income. Wonder what the tax return looked like?
I agree we don't need an inquiry. We should just leave him alone. He's toast.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:25 p.m.
LEAVE HIM ALONE? How can we do that? He ought to be charged, convicted and sentenced, and then beheaded in front of the Peace Tower as a warning to other would be wrongdoers!
He allowed a foreign government to interfere in the internal politics of Canada. Canada ought to call the German ambassador in and issue a formal dressing down. What has happened is outrageous. He ought to at least serve some time in jail.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:29 p.m.
MULRONEY WAS ALWAYS UNSAVORY.
1. He switched from representing workers to be President of the Iron Ore Company of Canada--he was hired by the American owners to shutdown the town of Schefferville and lay off every worker at the company, which he did, for a fee.
2. He brought Lucien Bouchard and the Separatistes to Ottawa and gave them inside jobs to undermine Canada.
3. He promised Quebec all kinds of things which were based on lies--Mulroney supported the claim Quebec was "stabbed in the back" during the patriation negotiations in which Levesque was out-manouevred by Trudeau/Chretien/Romanow. This last thing is the worst of all Mulroney's crimes!
4. Remember Meech Lake and the Charlottetown accords? Shudder.
Sandy December 14, 2007 at 11:34 p.m.
Jeanne, dr and perplexed - thank you for your comments. I concur completely and that poll kind of validates everything we feel about this abomination of a publisher and former businessman / CEO. Well, at least he is essentially under a mild form of house arrest at the moment, as he awaits March 3rd. Cannot be pleasant to know that you can travel only to Chicago but the Mulrooooooooooneys will visit with him and they can all comiserate. Mulrooooney's decision to become a card carrying menber of errr Palm Beach and NY society rather than spend retirement years as an elderstatesman,( hell, even Clinton has at least made an attempt to clean up his act ) is just what one would expect from this greaser. Some legacy Brian will also leave, along with Black / Tubby.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:36 p.m.
I lived in Quebec when Mulroney was Prime Minister. He was a sleazy scoundrel in Quebec and the people he promoted were well-known Separatistes in Quebec. That Lucien's trechery was a surprise to him can only be described, charitably, as delusional. Everyone knew what Lucien was all about--Lucien is more honest than Mulroney.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:43 p.m.
MULRONEY USED THE "QUEBEC WAS STABBED IN THE BACK" SLOGAN TO ATTACK HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES
Mulroney viciously attacked Trudeau and Chretien as people who had stabbed their own province and people in the back. That legacy of lies lives on in the animosity levelled at Stephane Dion and the portrayal of Dion as a traitor to the Quebecois, ideas of which Mulroney was the architect! Mulroney believed the ends justified the means, and the ends were his personal self-interest, even gambling Canada's future existence, all for his own narrow personal political gain.
ROGER December 14, 2007 at 11:48 p.m.
RECALL, TRUDEAU SAT IN THE STANDS WHILE PEOPLE RAINED DOWN BOTTLES AND BRICKS AND ROCKS AT HIM, ANY ONE OF WHICH COULD HAVE SERIOUSLY INJURED OR EVEN KILLED TRUDEAU
It is in that kind of an atmosphere that Mulroney gave credence to the "Quebec was stabbed in the back" slogan, making Chretien and outsider in his own province and trying to do the same to Dion. That is not ordinary give and take of politics. That is calculated vicious tactics of using the Big Lie to win at any cost.
Barbara in BC December 14, 2007 at 11:59 p.m.
Thanks for your commentary Roger. It's becoming clearer what Mulroney was doing in the 80's. All I know is that as soon as he was elected in 1984, he cancelled all research into alternative energy that the NRC was doing in Ottawa. Solar, wind power and biomass research, all cancelled and the expensive buildings filled with equipment were left empty.
My husband was laid off, they told everyone not to go to the media with the news! Our theory is that it must have been a gift to the oil industry from Mulroney.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 12:01 a.m.
All of which leaves Mulroney's reputation and legacy in tatters - a sad ending and just punishment that is enough.
The even sadder fact is we've had a series of these types at the wheel.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 12:17 a.m.
BARBARA IN BC--sadly, all governments have cut funding to research over the decades. Canada was once a world leader in freshwater ecological research, an area which has of late become critical, yet decades of research efforts were shut down and world reknown scientists laid off when the federal government cut funding--I cannot recall whether it was a Liberal or Conservative government in Ottawa who did that, but it was done. At Health Canada, three senior scientists were over-ruled, harassed by their managers, all because they criticized the veterinary pharmaceutical industry and refused to certify products as safe for dairy cattle, amongst other things. In the end, they fired these senior, respected scientists--the manager used to give speeches sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies---that happened on the Liberal Party watch!
There is no whistle-blower protection in Canada, freedom of information laws have been gutted, and corruption flourishes. Harper promised to clean things up--it is getting worse. Mulroney ought to be made an example of to show that when one is caught, they will be made to pay! But I am not holding my breath.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 12:25 a.m.
WITHOUT RESEARCH, BASIC RESEARCH, CANADA WILL SUFFER BADLY
There is a lot of waste in government. All levels of government. And when cuts are made, it is not the wasteful parts that are cut, but basic research funding. So students do not go into research intensive careers--it is too risky and one can be unemployed. I remember some decades ago that a physicist was laid off in Ottawa. He was an old man, but he was internationally famous. In fact, he had once been a colleague and collaborator of Einstein's. So there was that aging but productive man, laid off in Ottawa in some budget cuts! I myself quit a research career because it was too precarious. Instead of raising tuition fees, we ought to be paying people to go to school! Of course school admission and continuation ought to be based on merit, not whether one comes from a rich family. And there are too many mediocre university programs and too many universities in Canada and not enough technical trade and polytechnique institutes. Canada needs a lot more design and art schools and a lot fewer silly business schools and low level private colleges that just rip off gullibel students. I am on a rant.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 12:31 a.m.
THE recent LIST OF BAD PMs:
John Turner, Paul Martin, Kim Campbell, Mulroney
The list of truly bad MPs is too long to list but would include:
Sheila Copps, John Manley, Brian Tobin, Allan Rock, Mulroney's entire cabinet, Bev Oda, Vic Toews, Dennis O'Connor, ...
Billy December 15, 2007 at 12:38 a.m.
Crouton
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 12:44 a.m.
CHRETIEN--a 40 year career without speaking either official language. Chretien's worst muck-up was probably 1969--the White Paper on Aboriginal Affairs. Chretien had many failures, but I miss him. APEC was very bad, Shawinigate was a mess, and he was surrounded by lots of idiots in his cabinet, but somehow he held the country together and the economy did well. Turner and Martin were turkeys reaching beyond their capabilities. They were capable as cabinet ministers but lousy as PM material.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 12:46 a.m.
CHRETIEN'S FINEST HOUR WAS IRAQ--with any other PM of those around at the time, we would have been in that mess. Imagine the threats he faced for saying no.
Fintan December 15, 2007 at 3:38 a.m.
In a way, you have to hand it to His Lardship for sheer neck - bolstered by a terminal case of denial.
This is a giggle - and some of the comments at the end are also hilarious: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs...
There may be honour among thieves, but not among the neocons and trough-snouters like Kissinger. The latter should have been in prison as a war criminal for the last few decades.
His Lardship is completely out of touch with the mood and reality of the USA, where corporate kleptocracy is now definitely "out".
And come March, Baron Black of Crossways Buggered will be "in". Where he belongs!
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4:12 a.m.
most uninspired thread ever...
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4:51 a.m.
CB: "... i offer the other cheek ...
Ha-ha!!!
Let's get this thread inspired. he'll have to offer both cheeks (at the other end of his anatomy) to Bubba or one of his friends very soon ...
inspiring enough?
Jim McDougald December 15, 2007 at 8:26 a.m.
shareholder,
I reiterate: The money was paid out by International without Audit committee approval.
The document Tuite refers to in your Dec 14, 7:23pm post is a board package including a 2001 financial statement filed in 2002 well after the transactions had occurred. I'm not absolving Kravis, Burt and Thompson for missing the items, but noting that accepted procedures were not followed by the executive committee of Black, Radler and Perle.
The proper process is to review and get approval from the audit committee prior to board meetings and certainly prior to year-end filings.
The audit committee was not presented with the APC non-competes for approval.
The jurors were in full-time attendance, heard the testimony, saw the documentation and arrived at a guilty verdict. I wasn't there and I presume you had other things to occupy your time as well. Let it rest. You can gloat if Conrad wins on appeal.
"Thank God he has George's integrity, as so many of the young have never heard the word."
Sandy December 15, 2007 at 9:08 a.m.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4:12 a.m.
most uninspired thread ever...
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4:51 a.m.
CB: "... i offer the other cheek ...
Ha-ha!!!
Let's get this thread inspired. he'll have to offer both cheeks (at the other end of his anatomy) to Bubba or one of his friends very soon ...
inspiring enough?
Oh Lord, just shaddup already, you obnoxious zero and give us all a break from your tripe.
Shaddup yourself December 15, 2007 at 10:05 a.m.
Sandy (who is Donna) says of Conrad: "Oh Lord, just shaddup already, you obnoxious zero and give us all a break from your tripe."
That's how many of us, including anti-Blacks, on this blog feel about Sandy/Donna.
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 11:18 a.m.
Great link to the National Post article Fintan. Words fail me when I see how Conrad has deluded himself. He's innocent and nobody believes him except his relatives. Somehow even William F. Buckley is agin him.
The comments below the article are worth reading too.
Sandy December 15, 2007 at 11:20 a.m.
Shaddup yourself December 15, 2007 at 10:05 a.m.
Leaf - try a different tactic - your multiple id's are transparent - you will always be an obnoxious zero- buzz off, creep.
Feldwebel Wolfenstool December 15, 2007 at 11:24 a.m.
I think Brian Mulddon shows an incredible amount of intestinal fortitude simply by SHOWING HIS FACE outside of anywhere but his own bathroom or back yard. Look what someone did to JOE-WHO...someone cold-cocked him on the street. Watch out Muldoon, someone might take a shot at you. But I bet you don't EVER travel alone, or even get out of an automobile in Public. I would have to say that Pierre Idiot Turdeau, and Brian Mulddoon are the TWO MOST HATED POLITICIANS in Qannaddian History. Shall we put it to a vote? Naw...voting and democracy are just sczhiddty hollow words nowadays..
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 11:42 a.m.
Today's Globe and Mail has an article called:
"Why Black's faith 'will sustain him'"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s...
Shaddap yourself December 15, 2007 at 11:46 a.m.
Sandy December 15, 2007 at 11:20 a.m.
Shaddup yourself December 15, 2007 at 10:05 a.m.
Leaf - try a different tactic - your multiple id's are transparent - you will always be an obnoxious zero- buzz off, creep.
------
Wrong again, Sandy/Donna. I am not Leaf. And you are still calling the kettle black. It is you, Donna, whose multiple ids are transparent. You've had more IDs than Black has faults. Your obnoxiousness knows no bounds.
Fintan December 15, 2007 at 12:15 p.m.
The article that Barbara in BC refers to shows what an elitist and creep and hypocrite His Lardship is. When he embraced Catholicism, it had to be under the guidance of a Cardinal, no less, not just any old priest.
Same in Chicago, Mass with the Cardinal there - just as long as those surrounding His Lardship are Salonfähig and worthy of his company!
And there is nothing new about Anglicans converting to Catholicism - Tide or Daz, make your choice.
It's been happening since the mid-1800s. An earlier wave was led by John Henry Newman and the Oxford Movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_...
Newman is an interesting character, but unlike His Lardship could admit that he had been in error. For example, he once denounced the Pope as an antichrist and the Catholic Church as "polytheistic, degrading and idolatrous", but later changed his mind enough to convert to that religion and beome a Cardinal (a member of the electoral college that chooses a new Pope when the old one dies). His reasons included his unease with the strengthening trend towards modernisation (=away from the old order) in Anglicanism in those days.
However, I have read his The Idea of a University and a lot in it is still very valid.
I wonder how His lardship manages confession, which every Catholic must make to a priest at least once a year? The idea, as I interpret it is, that God - through the confessor - gives absolution only if the sin is confessed and there is genuine contrition, i.e. a determination not to do it again.
It may be, as one of the apologist clerics quoted in the article suggests, that Black genuinely does not see how he has done anything wrong. Then surely is it not high time for some of his clerical friends to tell him - as some of his secular friends already have - that he needs to pause for a reality check?
Convicted crooks consorting with high representatives of the hierarchy - would a devout Catholic working-class widow who has been a model of goodness all her life gain access to the top brass so easily? - is sending out the wrong kind of message to those who might listen to the church with more receptive ears when it bemoans the greed and materialism that are ruining our society and indeed even threatening the habitality of our planet for humans.
W101 December 15, 2007 at 12:28 p.m.
Conrad Black: "They need only survive and retain their faculties a while longer, to see that my present embattled condition is not, as Bill wrote, “the end.” I wish that for them, and all other good things."
-----
Fintan, thanks for the link to Black's ridiculous NP letter. Black is so egomaniacal, the reason he sees for HK and WFB to hang onto life is to witness Black's second coming.
Excellent news that Club Fed is kaput. LOL!! Black's crackerjack appeal team requested a prison that has been shut down? What a bunch of clowns!
Coleman: no email, no writing for publication.
How many minutes after he arrives at Coleman will it take Black to talk his way into the medium security wing?
What really strikes me about the photos of Black in the news lately is how incredibly twisted and ugly his face is, could anything broadcast CROOK more clearly to the world?
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 12:32 p.m.
Fintan, you had the same reaction that I did about the snobbery of Black even in relation to religion:
"When he embraced Catholicism, it had to be under the guidance of a Cardinal, no less, not just any old priest."
Because I was raised as a Catholic, I know that there is no tangible advantage in becoming friends with people in high places in the church. There is no status system in religion, at least none that is visible to the eye. Conrad Black, by only associating with the top religious boys is taking materialism into the spiritual realm.
But no contrition for his misdeeds? Ouch.
Jeanne December 15, 2007 at 12:35 p.m.
BinBC, Fintan: Another interesting snippet in the article about CB's Catholicism was Peter White's observation, "Conrad loves the pomp and ceremony and all the physical aspects of the liturgy, which are so theatrical and are so impressive."
Somehow, that reminded me of all Conrad's various costumes over the years. The man loves dressing up. Remember the Cardinal Richelieu picture? And the photos of himself in his ermine trimmed Lord outfit. And that strange one of CB dressed up in a military uniform that he'd had tailored for himself. He was inspecting the guard with the then-Governor General, because he'd snagged himself some kind of honourary colonelship in the regiment, or something like that. The honourary post didn't come with a uniform, so he had one made for himself, and topped it with a dorky-looking cap, something like a firefighter would wear.
Strange fetish CB has there, for costumes. Perhaps he can sew himself some epaulettes for his prison uniform, or stitch a bit of gold braid somewhere on his prison-issue shirt collar.
Jeanne December 15, 2007 at 12:52 p.m.
Excellent blog article by Andrew Coyne of Maclean's magazine on the Brian Mulroney issue.
http://forums.macleans.ca/advansis/?mod=...
W101 December 15, 2007 at 12:54 p.m.
Jeanne: "Somehow, that reminded me of all Conrad's various costumes over the years."
-----
Black's aesthetic taste makes shiny golf shoe tassels seem groovy.
Look at what he wears, suits, furnishings, cars ... not a shred of character or originality.
Black imposed his character on Argus, Hollinger and the other companies he ruined, turning them into hollowed out shells, just like the man himself.
Adam December 15, 2007 at 12:59 p.m.
This was the first real blog I made a point of reading.
I'm sad to say I think it failed to do what Doug Bell set out to do -- namely provide a critique of the coverage of Black's trial.
Too much b.s. between posters flaming each other and running off on tangents. Not enough diligence from TL in restricting comments to the day's actual news.
Also, not nearly enough critical analysis of the coverage of the trial. I haven't seen a wrap piece by Doug Bell that would give us a criticism of how the big dailies - Nat Post, Globe, Star - handled the entire trial, not to mention the Brit papers.
All you have to do is look at this most recent string of posts to see how much clutter can cloud a good story flow. What I want is more views on the coverage of someone so polarizing as Black. And less like the posts above.
Sandy December 15, 2007 at 1:02 p.m.
Perhaps. if one is permitted some silly or maybe sublime reflection, Black might have become a priest or even cardinal. I attach about as much credibility to Black's religiosity and devotion to his Catholicism as that which exists in the ad nauseum protestations of his innocence. It simply does not compute that he is a devoted Catholic. No truly religious individual would have behaved and continue to behave with such arrogance, hatred of underlings and those he considers beneath his station, pompousness, hubris. A truly religious person is humble and of all the characteristics that define Black, humility is not one of them. He is a fake and his religious devotion is phony. His catholicism refelcts his opportunism.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 1:28 p.m.
It's not accurate to declare Tubby a "polarizing" figure. Tubby is almost universally despised by the Canadian public who had their long-standing assumptions about him fulfilled.
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 1:31 p.m.
Adam's critique of this blog seems to show a misunderstanding of what a blog is meant to be. I found the etymology of the word which I was not aware of:
“The term "weblog" was coined by Jorn Barger on 17 December 1997. The short form, "blog," was coined by Peter Merholz, who jokingly broke the word weblog into the phrase we blog in the sidebar of his blog Peterme.com in April or May of 1999. This was quickly adopted as both a noun and verb ("to blog," meaning "to edit one's weblog or to post to one's weblog").”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog
wave99 December 15, 2007 at 1:31 p.m.
Sandy, Donna.
Organized religion can be exactly as you noted. It's hierarchial and largely demands obedience.
If you believe your accounts on Black's personality, organized religion might be the exact fit.
On the other hand, there seems to be a time in most lives in which reflection is required and many people turn to religion during those moments.
I think you should actually just...for once...give him the benefit of the doubt.
How can you not prepare yourself for a prison term and a dramtically adjusted life without reviewing your faith.
It's quite natural.
He's not a computer.
He's not a monster.
And, if religion is to be taken seriously, without it being poiltical, it needs contributions from all types.
Even you.
W101 December 15, 2007 at 1:35 p.m.
"What I want is more views on the coverage of someone so polarizing as Black. And less like the posts above."
---
LOL!
And your insightful contribution to the blog has been what again?
Another pretentious prick with nothing to say.
So glad you could join us.
Sandy December 15, 2007 at 1:36 p.m.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 1:28 p.m.
It's not accurate to declare Tubby a "polarizing" figure. Tubby is almost universally despised by the Canadian public who had their long-standing assumptions about him fulfilled.
I agree completely.
Perplexed December 15, 2007 at 1:43 p.m.
Get lost Adam -- find another blog where contributions like yours can be matched by similar contributions like yours.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 1:49 p.m.
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 1:31 p.m.
Adam's critique of this blog seems to show a misunderstanding of what a blog is meant to be.
as i wrote in the previous thread, BBC has an uncanny ability to miss or avoid the truth.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 1:54 p.m.
W101 December 15, 2007 at 1:35 p.m.
"What I want is more views on the coverage of someone so polarizing as !
And your insightful contribution to the blog has been what again?
Another pretentious prick with nothing to say.
So glad you could join us.
.
classic donna
Perplexed December 15, 2007 at 1:55 p.m.
Get lost leaf -- find another blog where contributions like yours can be matched by similar contributions like yours.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 1:59 p.m.
donna again, this time stealing perplexed's identity.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 2:05 p.m.
>And, if religion is to be taken seriously, without it being poiltical<
Huh? Paul Kennedy's history of the Christian Church makes it clear that, at least insofar as Christianity goes, the Church is and was always about politics, at least after Rome got a hold of it. Who remembers that St Augustine carried out genocidal wars in N Africa? Who can forget the letter of invitation from a pope to bishops inviting them to a conference, noting he was sending carriages and horses to pick them up and expressing his "concern" for their ongoing good health?
Many other religions are explicit and do not distinguish between the realm of politics and theology. The Bhagavad Gita is placed in a time of war and explores the nature of human's relationships, duties and whether war is just. St Augustine too deals with whether war is just, but he did distinguish between the City of God and the City of Man, the false dichotomy. Islam is of course a religion that strenuously refuses to recognize secularism and insists that society be theological, as do many, but not all branches of Judaism.
Speaking of Judaism, did anyone see the advertisement of the Rabbinical Council on the Middle East peace initiative in yesterday's Globe and Mail? It was very refreshing and a major blow to Zionists everywhere!
America under Bush is a Christian Crusader Nation, bent on continued world domination. Black, when he was not stealing, was part of that world view.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 2:12 p.m.
Roger --"America under Bush is a Christian Crusader Nation, bent on continued world domination."
Also interesting that Mike Huckabeee the "Christian leader" is rapidly gaining ground in GOP nominations.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 2:13 p.m.
Muslim extremists have to be the biggest babies on the planet - AND hypocrites. They want to bring the entire world back to the good ol' days of Islam (the 7th century) but use all the modern technology they can get their hands on to do so ! Life is tough Islamists - Stop whining and wear a helmet !
Ken, Oakville, Canada
substitute 'muslim extremists' by roger....
uncanny
leaf December 15, 2007 at 2:16 p.m.
i'm on a roll today, aren't i?
☺
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 2:49 p.m.
Billy: That Huckabee you spoke of is going to be a heck of a world leader if he gets elected:
Huckabee congratulates Canada on preserving its National Igloo
In this classic bit from April 2001, Canadian satirist Rick Mercer travels down to Arkansas to ask some good folks about Canada’s efforts to protect their national capitol building from the effects of global warming. A former Governor offers his congratulations on the efforts to preserve their “National Igloo”.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/14...
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 2:52 p.m.
ZHENG HE, AKA CHENG HO, IMPERIAL CHINA'S GREATEST EXPLORER AND ADMIRAL, was also the founder of Islamic communities from Indonesia to Malaysia and throught southeast Asia and even perhaps parts of Africa. When Timbuktu was a centre of Islamic learning and Africa was a place of high culture, people travelled there from Europe and other parts of the world to learn snd study, not to plunder.
But all religion is fairytales dressed up as philosophy, to quiet the masses when things go bonk in the night. It is not the case that one is inherently better or worse than the next, but that people feel the need for a crutch. Religion, to plagiarize Marx, is just another drug. People have spent their lives in pursuit of utopia and opiates, whether literal or figurative, are consumed to get high. Do not forget, St Jerome actually castrated himself and recommended it to others (ie other males). In that tradition, celibacy is a very odd, unnatural condition, but everyone from Catholic priests to popes to Buddhist monks and nuns to Hindus to sportsmen on the eve of contest ascribe some mystical power to conserving sexual spending, to use Victorian vernacular. One dreads to think what salacious innuendo Leaf implies when she says, as a leaf, she is "on a roll"! She has also mentioned "being waxed" by Lord Black! I am grateful I do not delve into Freudianism otherwise I might conjure up lurid perverse images of the kind Leaf no doubt alludes to.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 3:02 p.m.
BARBARA IN BC--thank you for that news report. I too was wondering about the effect of hot air on Ottawa--the environment around Ottawa has been severely damaged by decades of speeches by Mulroney, Harper snarling in parliament and some Reform Party guy calling across the aisle to another MP to "show his gonads" and join him in a fist fight on the floor! If they were made to serve in an igloo, we would all be better off. In fact, if they had to stand outside in February in Ottawa to do the nation's business, they would all be more to the point and we would have a lot less hot air. I really like Americans. They are sooo funny. I guess Americans think all Canadians are like Conrad Black.
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 3:08 p.m.
Don't thank me, thank Rick Mercer for that report. He's the Merry Prankster of Canada.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 3:11 p.m.
- is leaf bragging when he insists:-- I are on a roll today --
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 3:16 p.m.
AS DRUGS HAVE BECOME MORE POTENT AND MORE WIDELY AVAILABLE, and other kinds of addictions have taken hold, like behavioural obsessions, similar to chemical dependency, like gambling or extreme physical fitness/exercise workouts, or relationship dependencies, the need for religion has waned. But religion as a basis for political organization is alive and well and living all over the world. In addition, the alienation of modernity, the emptiness of modern technological life, the loss of the divine, the loss of meaning to life, creates a yearning for a simple explanation, some organizing principle to give meaning to everything. Secular humanism lacks the rituals, the costumes, the pomp and circumstance, the emotional ride that religion offers. For a lonely person, down on their luck, for the alcoholic in need of detox, religion offers fellowship, meaning, ready made goals and support network, sanctions and rewards. One can stop thinking and just join and go with the flow. They even tell you how to vote, so you don't have to follow politics anymore--others will do that for you. That is how one ends up with Little Bush. I am still not sure how Tony Blair got in.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 3:23 p.m.
BinBC --- world perspective and knowledge doesn't seem a prerequisite for office there -- only religion, as hypocritical as it is .
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 3:28 p.m.
ON THE TOPIC OF RELIGION AND CULTURE, ARE CHRISTMAS TREES MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE?
I am not an expert, but I doubt it. The Christmas tree is actually an ancient pre-Christian pagan symbol of Germanic and other European tribes, to whom trees and forests are sacred. Even today, forests play an important part in the folklore and mythology of German peoples (Germany as a unitary state is an idea which is relatively new, slightly younger even than Canada, unless one tries to claim the Holy Roman Empire was German). So how has a pagan symbol come to be argued about as a symbol of Christianity? Why not a burning bush with red foliage, one might ask?
leaf December 15, 2007 at 3:32 p.m.
not bragging billyboy. making fun of myself.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 3:41 p.m.
BUT WE OUGHT NOT TO DENIGRATE THE IDEA OF RELIGION IN POLITICS
I seem to recall, although I am not completely certain, that Tommy Douglas was inspired by his religious beliefs. Trudeau was formed by his Catholic devotion and only discovered secularism late in life. The Emperor Ashoka, after a particularly bloody battle, in surveying the battlefield, changed direction and embraced his Buddhism and sent missionaries on peaceful missions to China and the Far East, to Europe, to the Middle East and Africa. The centre of the Indian flag is Ashoka's wheel emblem, the symbol that was on the military shields of Ashoka's warriors. No doubt Ashoka's missionaries encountered problems where they went. The Europeans probably ate the missionaries. But China, Japan and much of the Far East adopted Buddhism, and afterward, when Buddhism died out in India, the land of its birth, Buddhism lived on where Ashoka's missionaries had planted it. So today, Buddhist monks are trying to get the Burmese tyrants to change. Without Buddhism, there would not have been cultural exchange between India and China and Japan and southeast Asia. Or would there have been other exchanges?
Billy December 15, 2007 at 3:41 p.m.
Roger .."I am still not sure how Tony Blair got in."
People rightly think someone with strong articulation skills can more easily win elections and people wrongly think strong articulation skills necessarily translate into smart leadership.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 3:42 p.m.
LEAF, THERE REALLY IS NO REASON TO TRY TO MAKE FUN OF YOURSELF. We laugh at you when you are being serious. In fact, you are funniest when you are being most earnest!
Billy December 15, 2007 at 3:43 p.m.
leaf - you have abundant material
Billy December 15, 2007 at 3:45 p.m.
Kelly -- where's Kelly? I'm not at my best without Kelly. Kelleeeeee
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 3:47 p.m.
KELLY IS HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH A LAWYER SHE MET AT THE BLACK TRIAL. I read someplace that Alanna is dating a lawyer who represented Lord Black. How romantic.
Billy December 15, 2007 at 3:51 p.m.
ah hah --I knew it couldn't be because she cared about Tubby - his sons didn't.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 3:52 p.m.
And then, I filed a motion.
God, I am getting so excited. Go on!
And cross-sued.
Yes.
Then we appealed.
Yes yes.
Then we filed a writ for discovery, followed by a subpoena, which we followed up with a motion to dismiss.
Yes yes yes.
And so on... ad nauseum.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 3:53 p.m.
i did not make the 3:52 post
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 3:56 p.m.
Didn't think that post was leaf's. Too bizarre.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 3:57 p.m.
Barb stop trying to suck up to me you still owe me
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 3:59 p.m.
Hey I gave you a poem. No better (or cheaper) gift is possible.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4 p.m.
getting a poem from a guy is worth something. from another girl it aint
Adam December 15, 2007 at 4:01 p.m.
Shame on all of you, this blog is nothing more than a chat line -- I'm going somewhere I can be intellectually stimulated
Eve December 15, 2007 at 4:03 p.m.
Adam--where have you been? I've been waiting for you.
Barbara in BC December 15, 2007 at 4:12 p.m.
leaf says: I think that I shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree.
Adam December 15, 2007 at 4:13 p.m.
Eve, I have been pontificating.
There is not nearly enough critical analysis of the coverage of the trial on this blog. I haven't seen a wrap piece by Doug Bell that would give us a criticism of how the big dailies - Nat Post, Globe, Star - handled the entire trial, not to mention the Brit papers.
Also, I would like to see world organizations formed that confront directly the issues raised by the polarization of opinion of Black and a the fairness of his trial.
God December 15, 2007 at 4:16 p.m.
I was a bit annoyed (but not enough for a fire and brimstone storm) when Moses edited that list of 29 commandments I gave him down to 10. But I understood it was because humans have ten digits on their hands. Moses' equivalent on Denbig 7 had no problem with it at all and published the list as it. OK, they have 29 appendages on that planet, including their three thingies.
But number 7, "Thou shalt not steal", remained on the list on both planets.
Pity Mr Black missed it.
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4:17 p.m.
my last post on this thread was at 2:13pm
how old are you people?
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 4:19 p.m.
ADAM, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE REPORT ON THE BLACK GANG'S KLEPTOCRACY/
You ask for others to entertain you, while you yourself make no effort at substance.
ROGER December 15, 2007 at 4:20 p.m.
LEAF, STOP TRYING TO SABOTAGE THIS SITE.
Adam December 15, 2007 at 4:21 p.m.
good question leaf
Satan December 15, 2007 at 4:21 p.m.
Black's spot is reserved. it is a hot seat.
Eve December 15, 2007 at 4:23 p.m.
Adam, why is your leaf so small?
leaf December 15, 2007 at 4:28 p.m.
sam, there's approximately 4 people posting on this thread, impersonating many.
the 4 patients are running the asylum.
Adam December 15, 2007 at 4:35 p.m.
Roger, here is a small slice of my thoughts on the subject matter of your recent post. I think that as those folksy delegates in New York for last year's Republican convention strolled down Park Avenue, they must have wondered how anybody can afford such opulent homes. One way of course is to get your company to buy a $3 million apartment in one of Manhattan's glitziest neighborhoods. Buy a much smaller pad in the same building for $499,000. Six years later, swap your little place and $2.15 million for the swankier digs. Forget the fact that the top-drawer space has appreciated considerably, and you just made a cool $2.5 million.
This is but one of dozens of grandiose schemes that Black cooked up to finance his lavish, globetrotting lifestyle. This report is very accurate. It depicts Hollinger as part Enron and part Tyco, a personal "piggy bank" for Black and his longtime business partner David Radler. "Behind a constant stream of bombast regarding their accomplishments as self-described 'proprietors,' Black and Radler made it their business to line their pockets at the expense of Hollinger almost every day, in almost every way they could devise," fumes the committee and they are right to feel thia way.
Fancy perks the filthy thieves. From 1997 to 2003, Black and his cronies helped themselves to more than $400 million from Hollinger coffers--nearly equal to the company's net income during that period. Then there were the fringe benefits that Black allegedly expensed: $1.4 million for a personal chef, maids, and butlers at his four homes; $42,870 for a birthday bash for his wife, Barbara Amiel-Black; $390,000 for the care of his Rolls-Royce and other cars; "summer drinks," $24,950. Hollinger, meanwhile, began losing money, and its stock price drifted down. By 2003, the report concludes, Hollinger had become an enterprise "whose sole preoccupation was generating current cash for the controlling shareholders."
The 14-month "corporate kleptocracy" investigation, as they call it, led by former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Richard Breeden, emboldens a growing posse of regulators and shareholders who for years have been demanding more accountability and better corporate performance from the grandiloquent Black. It also reveals the connection between charismatic moneymen and the public eminences they court. As Black hobnobbed with high society, he attracted board members with unusually high wattage for a midsize company, including former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and Richard Perle, a key Pentagon adviser. By and large, the group rubber-stamped ruinous management practices. Perle, in particular, had a "head-in-the-sand behavior". He should be held liable for damages.