Stacey May 8, 2008 at 4:50 p.m.

Tori, I couldn't agree with you more. I work at my husband's busy store, and there are loads of parents who come in with their kids. The majority of them are good parents who watch their kids and say no to touching, but then there are those who don't, those who treat our store and products like toys in a playground, like we are a daycare centre for their kids. I don't have kids, don't want any, but if we could be reasonably assured all parents were doing their parental jobs, we wouldn't cringe when we see parents coming in the front door. You are dead on the money that it's about considerate parents vs. inconsiderate parents who like to get their nose out of joint if you dare lift an eyebrow at their perfect angels' antics in public. Parents like that put us, the working public, between a rock and hard place because this is our livelyhood. We work hard to create relationships with our customers and to keep them happy so they will keep referring new business to us, but they make it hard for us to like them when they let their kids run wild all over in public without so much as flinching or making a move to discipline the children.

marley May 14, 2008 at 1:33 p.m.

I think the point the "payback" quip was making - and I read it as tongue-in-cheek - is that we ignore each others' needs for as long as possible in this city until they cause us some discomfort.

We'll ignore the 9-month pregnant woman (and sure, a pregnant woman not dying, but you can imagine she is pretty swollen and uncomfortable) but we'll bitch and moan when her fussy baby takes up space interrupts our solitary reverie on the streetcar.

I, too, found it pretty rich that I could rarely get a seat when I was in major 3rd trimester pain, but people took the liberty of lecturing me when I brought the baby on the TTC.

My first-ever ride on a streetcar with my 2-week-old baby to the midwife, he started to scream. I was horrified. One person looked at me and announced: "He is hungry. You should feed him." Someone else yelled "Get off the car!"

You NEED an all-weather stroller in our winters. And we car-less downtowners need access to the TTC. And for those who have a problem accommodating a higher influx of people with babies in their day-to-day, I'd say "suck it up." And I'd only be partly joking.

quince May 14, 2008 at 1:46 p.m.

I totally agree with Marley and put the blame squarely on the TTC and the infrastructure of the city - none of it is properly planned out to accommodate even basic ridership needs, let alone such important things as strollers and wheelchairs. The subway is slowly being retro-fitted, but not nearly fast enough. The streetcars are the worst, though. Every major European city (Amsterdam, Milan, Munich, Vienna, Copenhagen) I have been in, the public transit is designed to be flexible and provide the necessary room for every possible rider situation. Not the case here. Why are there four steep steps to get into the street car? Why is there no spot for bikes, wheelchairs and strollers? We live in a city that needs technology to help us out - through the winters and the crowds and the sprawl. The province should step up, take over the TTC, integrate it with the GO Train, and make travelling much easier on all of us.

new mom May 21, 2008 at 7:17 p.m.

I'm a new mom. It is disturbing for me to read the comments from the anti-baby side. I don't understand where all the anger and agression came from. Every person who posted was a baby at one time. Every baby was introduced to public space by a caregiver. Entering public space is a necessity, not a priveledge or entitlement. Keeping a baby locked indoors all day so as not to inconvenience the anti-baby public is cruel and insensitive.

It would be considered discrimination to ban the elderly, or ask them to leave an establishment. Why is it acceptable to consider children unwelcome in public space?

I was afraid for my safety when pregnant. Driving on Toronto roads was hazardous, I was rear-ended by a drunken careless driver. Riding the TTC was a nighmare. rarely did someone offer up their seat to me...even when in the last-trimester.

Now with a baby, I am very concious of our impact on others when we venture out into the world. I bought a small umbrella stroller, and I pause on the street to let people pass. When I know I'm going into a space that isn't stroller friendly (like a small store, or a non-wheelchair accessible subway stop) I will bring my baby carrier. However, carrying a 20LB baby all day is really hard on my back. On occasion I'll take the stroller on the TTC(especially in a snow or rain storm). People push to get past me when entering or exiting the bus or subway. Very rarely will someone help me up or down stairs. Riding the escalator is nerve-wracking. People push and bump into me. I've almost fallen trying to get off the escalator.

You cannot control the cries of an infant. They cry if they are bored, or lonely or hungry or sleepy. My guy cries all the time. If I exited public space everytime my kid made a noise....I'd never go anywhere. We try to visit only baby friendly establishments. Many places we used to go to when childless are off limits to us now.

I remember my last trip to Italy. Multi-generational families would go out at night to restaurants, and walk through the streets. I think it is unfortunate that Toronto is not as child-friendly as Rome.

Michelle (michelle@doudoubebe.com) May 22, 2008 at 4:31 p.m.

As a mother to two little ones, I've sweated my way through plenty of stressful trips and outings and the TTC with a stroller is a nightmare. But there's really very little reason for most parents to be bound by a stroller or to expect their babies are going to cry or fuss.

Mothers have been living their lives and working with their babies since the beginning of time - it's only recently that they've become a problem because we stick them in a stroller with a pacifier in their mouth. (In Rome, those babies were probably carried in arms with the stroller being a fashion statement...).

Parents, get yourself a good carrier that you love (maybe even a couple for different occassions) - it is absolutely possible to comfortably carry a baby all day even at 30 lbs.. You'll be as mobile as before, your baby will cry less and sleep better and maybe you'll even get a seat on the subway every once in a while.

And you "anti-baby" folks will suddenly wonder where all the babies went - even when they're right next to you.

James May 26, 2008 at 5:53 p.m.

I have absolutely NO issue with toddlers and strollers on the TTC. Strollers do take a lot of space and babies can be loud but when you are on public transit, you just have to deal with it. If they can, I think parents with small children should take the TTC rather than cars. I think that everyone who can take public transit should and just because they have babies with them doesn't mean that they should be discouraged for doing so.

Monika May 26, 2008 at 9:47 p.m.

Michelle,

as a babywearer, I agree with about wearing even a 40lb toddler in back carry - but truth is, you will not be able to carry much else.

I also used to be pretty anti-stroller but there are times when you have to pick something up at the store, when a stroller is just very handy. A 30lb baby on the back, plus a purse and heavy bags, that spells a bad back ache.

Tale of 3 strollers... June 2, 2008 at 11:08 p.m.

I honestly think the issues people have with big SUV type strollers have less to do with the space they take up, than resentment on the "indulgence" of them. Which leads me to wonder why people care so much what other people spend their money on.

When my first son was born 5 years ago, we bought a Graco travel system (this was before strollers were trendy). That Graco had zero suspension when I took my dog for walks on trails, and I started to worry about the baby shaking around like that, so we eventually bought a big all-terrain air-filled-tire big honking SUV type stroller, that is a beautiful ride even over bumpy trails. Funnily enough, both strollers are the same width from wheel to wheel, but the SUV-type one looks much bigger because it's tires are so much chunkier, and the seat is so much bigger. But the only time we've ever had dirty-stroller-looks is in the fancy one - for some reason people didn't resent the Graco shaken-baby-inducing-stroller, even though it was exactly the same width.

Also, we sometimes put both kids in the double bike trailer to get somewhere, then detach the trailer when we're there & use it as a stroller. Even though that is twice the width of our other strollers, people LOVE the bike trailer. They are constantly ooing over it and saying what fun it looks to ride in. No one says that about our pricey stroller, even though it truly does seem to be the nicest ride.

I think it's because people resent the indulgence of expensive strollers more than they do the size they take up.

Heather June 4, 2008 at 1:50 p.m.

i have been dividing my time the last few years between Toronto and Potsdam in Germany, just outside of Berlin. We had twins last November while in Germany and i spent much of the first few months being homesick for the comforts of Toronto until a visiting friend pointed out to me that i would never be able to saunter onto the TTC with my twin stroller like i do here. The s-bahn and regional trains all have cars with flip up seats for bikes and babies. Many new buses are low with a clear section for strollers. The transport map shows you what stations have elevators...
Not only is transport more accomodating, but so is the architecture. Most older walk-up appartment buildings have either a big wide entrance hall for strollers and /or an inner courtyard where you can park your bike trailer (and the cities have the bike trails to use them).
It would seem if the city provides space for babies they are less resented.
so far, other than the icy stares we got when we took the babies to what turned out to be a very quiet installation in an art gallery,
the most interference i have had is from nice old ladies who want to 'take a peek' in the baby carriage.

Amoreena June 4, 2008 at 5:31 p.m.

My husband and I don't drive, and have a one year old daughter. We have three strollers - the small umbrella stroller that can be used on TTC, the three-wheeler that can actually get through unshovelled snow, and the "mega-stroller" that we use in large department stores and grocery stores. We both adored carrying our daughter in her Snugli, but neither of us could bear the backache once she hit 15 lbs. Streetcars and buses are as accomodating as they can be, but come on! Hundreds of people use these vehicles - why should my stroller take up the equivalent of three passengers? At the same time, I have just as much right to ride the TTC. I never get help carrying her on or off, but that's why I have a stroller I can manage on my own. I remember being pregnant and no one offering me a seat, but I can't recall in the last year even once having to stand when I've had my daughter with me. People may be less considerate of pregnant women than they should be, but they generally show pretty decent sympathy for anyone juggling a baby or toddler on public transit!

tee June 5, 2008 at 5:13 p.m.

If you dont have a car, and have the winters we have in Canada, you will require A BIG HONKING STROLLER, to get through snow, and to carry grocery, ect. As long as us moms and dad are as considerate as possible, get over it. Really. I am not going shopping with my baby strapped to me who is over 20 pounds and carrying packages home. I will use my small stoller whenever possible and try to keep it out of others way. As for a baby crying??? come on, have a bit of tolerance. It is more upsetting to the mom and I am sure she is doing eveything she can to calm the baby.

Adina June 7, 2008 at 11:10 a.m.

I posted this in the first topic, but I just wanted to clarify (although I hate to rob the initial poster of her indignation) that my tone was badly out of context with the eventual article, which was a great and provocative piece, but not the tone I expected when I delivered the gem.

It's been a bit weird reading some of these reactions, but I figure that misinterpretation is the risk you take when you agree to make yourself a subject.

The end of my truncated quote was "not that I'm a vengeful person - that would be a terrible thing to teach your child!" - which (perhaps?) would have made it more clear that I was trying to be funny.

So just to clarify: No, I did not purchase a honkin' all-weather stroller to punish my fellow TTC passengers. I got it to get through the snow (and it certainly paid off this crazy winter).

Nor do I think it is "payback" to take my little guy on the streetcar/subway. That would be an odd motivation to take the Better Way.

In all seriousness, people have been so amazing this year helping me carry him down huge stairways in inaccessible subway stations. In fact, most people I encounter when I bring my kid are helpful and respectful but I guess that doesn't make for good fist-shaking controversy.

UmmZahra June 8, 2008 at 9:55 p.m.

Kids are entitled to get around on the TTC just as much as anybody else. I've been refused entry on to the bus (even with a small stroller) and once a bus driver told me, "We're only taking people." As if my child is not a person! (then the same bus driver lets on four people.) I have had three strollers and umbrella stroller (that thing was so small and had no bag space and couldn't even get over an ounce of snow). I HATE to take the larger stroller out during rush hour times,who wants to be get chewed out or the glare by folks, but sometimes it has to be done. Sometimes you're carrying belongings, getting groceries, etc. Sometimes it's just because the weather is impossible and the kid needs protection from the elements.

There are many people who piss and moan over a little stroller and make comments. Well, I put my game face on and say something to them. I'm not going to have someone moaning about my child or telling my child to shut up. Kids are people and they're entitled to every thing else other folks are entitled to (including making news, having a good cry, and playing).

And while I totally advocate baby wearing (many benefits other then ease of commuting), it's very difficult for some folks with older children or having to carry things. I had to stop commuting with my daughter in sling at 10 months because my back felt like it would break. My husband stopped when she was 14 months. And don't think just cause a kid can walk that he doesn't need a stroller. Commuting on the public transit takes time and the older toddlers want to nap as well. Who's gonna carry 40lbs of toddler around, plus bags and other necessities?

I think the people who can't get over themselves when a stroller is around needs to take a step back and realise how they are isolating parents and most importantly women (since women tend to be the main caregivers). Call it anti-stroller, but really it's anti-woman, anti-family. Seriously folks, grow up and stop whining over every little thing.

Diana June 9, 2008 at 8:42 p.m.

I am definitely sympathetic to the fact that parents need to transport their babies and their shopping and whatever else on the same buses, street cars and subways as I do. I think there should be allowances made on newly built cars to accomodate parents and their kids. However, today, your baby and stroller are parked FREE in front of the empty seat that I paid full price for. It would just be nice for you to acknowledge that fact and either try to let me sit down or even fold up the carriage and hold you baby so people can get on and off the bus more easily. No one has even mentioned the elderly or people with disabilities, the people for whom the front seats were originally intended. It just gets most people pretty steamed when a mom, her kids and her parcels take priority over the paying customers.

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 4:15 p.m.

Diana: Not everyone can afford a car, some people need public transit. But this is why I always DROVE to my appointments, etc. when I was on parental leave. To avoid people like you. Lifting my baby, who was quite big, out of his stroller and folding it up? Where exactly would I put him when I folded it up - on the floor? would you hold him for me? Have you ever tried to fold up a stroller? UNLESS you can afford the bugaboo, it ain't that easy. And to do all of the above on a crowded subway?! no thank you. Thank goodness I have a car. I feel for parents who don't... and the TTC sucks for stroller access anyway.

Katherine June 13, 2008 at 8:50 p.m.

I recently got on a bus at rush hour and decided to fold up the umbrella stroller to make room rather than leave my baby in it - what a mistake that was. I wound up needing to hug the stroller to me to keep it from flying across the subway. I tried putting it at my feet, but then it was tripping people & rolling. I couldn't hold my 1 year old in my lap with it, because people would walk by and bump it into my baby's head. So the baby got his own seat, and the stroller still took up some standing room. It would have been way better to keep him in the stroller, with the wheels locked & me gripping it - at least then there would have been a free seat for someone else.

And if you have a bugaboo, it's actually worse - the seat needs to be removed to fold it up, so now you have a baby, a seat, and a stroller frame - not very space saving!

People need to learn to be tolerant of people with strollers, the same way they are of people with any other bulky items - I've accomodated people with bikes, luggage, huge laptop bags that whack me in the face, pets, and countless other bulky items - it would never occur to me to not accomodate these items, as the TTC isn't a private club - everyone is welcome.

Lisa June 16, 2008 at 8:51 a.m.

Katherine - great point about other items. And your stroller story is an example of exactly what I was trying to say. HOnestly I found the thought of getting on the TTC with a stroller, so stressful, not the least because my baby was so heavy and I worried about having to carry him up and down stairs.

Marley June 18, 2008 at 2:57 p.m.

In addition to her suggestion that we fold up the stroller (with our extra set of arms), I particularly liked Diana's reminder that our babies were riding for free;) hee-hee!

Elizabeth June 23, 2008 at 10:48 p.m.

I have three kids, one who is disabled, and now no car because my husband needed to take it to get around while he's away for the summer. When I go our I take our 3month old in a carrier and my 2yr old in his Kid Kart seating system (ped wheel chair) because he cannot sit without full support and the lack of proper support in the stroller caused his spine to curve. His Kid Kart is huge and is made to look more like a stroller than a wheel chair (what kid want to ride in an adult wheel chair?). Not only have passenger been totally ignorant to me so have TTC drivers (and Mississauga Transit!), I have had drivers REFUSE to lower the ramp to get his chair on and off and even been told, while it was piss pouring rain out, to "wait until there are less people on the bus" (btw there was almost no people on the bus). If he was an adult in an adult wheel chair they would have been bending over backwards for him but because he's a child they don't care that he is disabled or that he needs to be in his chair, they see him as being in the way and too much work to be bothered with. I can't count the number of appointments we've been late for because drivers refuse to allow us onto the bus all because they don't want the extra work of lowering the ramp or helping to hook him in (which by law they need to do for any person under 16 in a wheel chair!). Since having his chair no driver, when they do let us on, has ever helped lock his wheel chair in and most take off before I have it hooked it. I ended up with a sprained wrist because one driver took off and my hand got snapped backwards then had his seat come flying against it. There are times now that I have walked over an hour to get to appointments or the grocery store because I don't want to put up with it, especially after a Mississauga told me I had a "nice f'ing attitude" for telling him to 1. get closer to the curb (he was two feet away from it!) 2. to lower the ramp and 3. and only after the eighth time he refused to lower the ramp to kneel the bus so I could get off! Now I have a $9000 Kid Kart that is in need of repairs all because he would not lower the ramp for me. I had NEVER been so embarrassed in my life he went out of his way to humiliate me and my children and make us look like the 'bad guys' because he didn't want to hit a button to lower a ramp. TTC and Mississauga Transit are kind of accessible for stroller and are for adults with disabilities but believe me if you have a disabled child to them you are no more then a piece of dirt on the side of the road!

Anonymous June 24, 2008 at 9:28 p.m.

Elizabeth, your story made me cry for the wretchedness of some people. Not only should you not be made to feel like a second class citizen for caring for your child, your child should not be made to feel that way for being disabled. I think you should write the TTC a letter about that, and from now on if you ever find that happening again, get the ID of the driver to make a complaint. I recently had an issue with a bus driver accelerating as I was putting my money in the token box, sending me, my 4 year old, and my baby in the stroller flying. Luckily people were very understanding about the stroller hitting them, saying in loud voices that the driver should have waited until I could engage the stroller locks, or at least grab hold of the bar, and should have waited for my 4 year old to grab a handle - however, I think some of the people on these boards would say it was my fault for bringing children on the bus.

Lisa June 25, 2008 at 12:40 p.m.

Elizabeth: I am so sorry for your trouble on transit. Perhaps your comments will make some of the self-centred posters here think twice when they complain about strollers taking up too much space.

Vanessa June 28, 2008 at 7:07 p.m.

I have no problem when people have strollers in the bus, tain or street car. I do have a problem with parents having strollers for 3 to 5 year old kids. They need to walk! (unless you are going to the Zoo or somewhere like that), in the city, please let this kids walk.

Eddie July 11, 2008 at 3:46 a.m.

Lisa

People still have a right to voice their opinion regardless of the situation. Calling someone self-centred because they have an opinion is a form of censorship.

Lisa July 14, 2008 at 10:23 a.m.

Eddie,

Calling a child a whiny assed brat because they cry in a restaurant is not censorship? That's how a baby expresses himself. Hypocrisy again.

Lisa July 14, 2008 at 10:29 a.m.

Also Eddie, telling someone not to call another self-centred is a form of censorship. Freedom of speech goes both ways. Or is it only applicable when the people expressing opinions agree with yours?

Stephanie July 14, 2008 at 9:12 p.m.

My two cents...
I have to agree with another writer when I say this....I have not encountered any problems taking the TTC with my son. When I was pregnant with him people gave up their seats, when I wore him people gave up their seats, and when I pushed him in either of the two strollers I own, someone always offered to help me carry him down the stairs. I can say that I saw the opposite happen to a young man one morning who had his little girl in very small stroller. Not one person offered to help. So I took a few steps down supported my little one who was in his carrier and grabbed the front of the stroller.
Maybe people are nice because my little one waves and smiles at everyone!! Who knows.......