Prophetess May 8, 2008 at 2:53 p.m.

I find this posting offensive, sounds like it could come from someone not blessed with children.

Get used to strollers and have more consideration for parents you selfish individual

Lala May 8, 2008 at 4:17 p.m.

I just don't understand the hate on that some people have for companies who are accommodating families.
So, you'd rather change your child on a dirty restaurant bathroom floor than go to Walmart or Zellers?
C'mon!

...and how many times do you need to mention your neighbourhood? Clearly I need to take you more seriously because you're from Leslieville and not Parkdale.

Rob May 8, 2008 at 6:22 p.m.

I heard that!
[however, if the real estate bubble doesn't hit soon Parkdale will be just like Le'ville - watch out]

Lala May 9, 2008 at 8:29 a.m.

LOL, Rob...I grew up in Parkdale and still work there.
Even while I was typing it I was thinking of the Hipster invasion.

parkdaler May 9, 2008 at 10:45 a.m.

lol - yeah the hipsters came to parkdale. they actually made it better, if you ask me. then the drake came - which isn't really parkdale, but close enough - and the hipsters started wearing tshirts that say "f*ck the drake." now they all have kids and eat at the drake and the have tiny little t-shirts for their infants that say "f*ck the drake". the compounded ironies/pretensions are pretty hilarious, if a little boring. i wouldn't take child rearing tips from people who can't even figure out which hotels are f*ckworthy.

carrie May 9, 2008 at 6:48 p.m.

This is an honest question so please don't flame me: Why conflate the people who hate strollers with people who hate kids? Can't you love kids but dislike megastrollers?
I honestly don't know why people use strollers at all. If the kid is little, it's so nice to carry them with you in a sling or one of those backpack-like things. I've spent some lovely times with my little niece that way. If the kid is too big to be carried, well, they're old enough to walk. Sure, they like to stop and look at ladybugs, but I find that pretty darn cute, and anyway, it's not like you can move that quickly pushing a stroller either.
I see the point of strollers if you cannot carry the child due to a bad back or something. Or if you're doing an errand like the grocery store which requires a lot of bags. But having lunch? Getting coffee? Why immobilize the kid?

Sally May 9, 2008 at 7:58 p.m.

Kids lookin at ladybugs? That is cute. But I think the point is that it isn't the strollers that's the problem. They' re a symptom. It's the parents who are careless. And insufferable. The strollers are like status symbols - but I think that they are just symbols of laziness. And $1200.00?! I didn't even know they could cost so much! I nephew gets hauled around in what my brother paid about 150 bucks for.

Yabadaba May 12, 2008 at 11:05 p.m.

I own a $1200 stroller, have 2 kids under the age of 3 and lived in parkdale! And we lived in parkdale from 1997 - 2006 so it was even pre-cool to live there.

We moved away and still get Toronto Life magazine. We live in a big city now, which is not Bugaboo-obsessed, fortunately.

We have raised our kids to be polite, well mannered, and we respect that everyone in a shop, restaurant or venue of any kind is there to enjoy themselves, not to worry about what kind of chaos my children are going to create.

If my kids act up, which they do on occasion, I leave. If they make a mess, I clean it up. If they scream, I shut them the f*ck up and we leave. Trust me, I don't want to listen to them scream any more than you do.

So it boils down to people just being rude, inconsiderate and insensitive. Like another poster wrote, "get over yourselves". It's not rocket science.

Kate May 13, 2008 at 4:57 p.m.

I find it funny how there is such a negative attitude towards strollers by some people - we were recently at an outdoor mall in Florida, and I had both my kids fast asleep in a double stroller we'd rented for trip. I saw a group of 5 ladies walking towards us, who were walking all side by side, and taking up the entire walkway. Two of them were giving me the hairy eyeball, so I pulled the double stroller off the sidewalk and into road to let them pass. As soon as they passed me, they all started talking about how inconsiderate parents and their oversized strollers are these days.

What the f*ck? These 5 ladies and their bags took up the entire sidewalk, to the point that people walking the other direction had to step onto the road, and the stroller is the problem???? Oversized strollers don't belong in small stores / restaurants / cafes, but to start bitching about them on sidewalks is a bit much. If I had seen those ladies again that day, you can bet I wouldn't have budged an inch for them.

Red May 14, 2008 at 9:50 a.m.

Maybe we could all just try to be as considerate as possible to one another - or at least try not to be so sensitive about getting (and so insensitive as to give) the "hairy eyeball."

Lauren May 15, 2008 at 11:46 a.m.

Sometimes when I read these comments, I feel as if I'm dealing with the child inside that $1200 stroller. Courtesy is something most of us were raised with and I was hoping it would make it's big comeback soon seeing as bellbottoms have already come and gone and they were far more damaging to Torontonians. Firstly, I feel the need to defend the hipster parents that everyone hates: I am not a parent nor am I close to being of age to be married but I feel that everyone has a right to dress how they want. Who cares if the dad at the park is wearing a Vote for Pedro shirt? Does that really have that great of an impact on your life? And who cares if you have to step aside while a big stroller comes down the sidewalk? Are you carting something as big that it makes it that big of a deal to you? Yes, we all need to be considerate and yes, there are TONS of parents who let their brats run around like crazy. But if people want to feel cool by doing what they do, just let them. Really, where's the harm in that? Why get bent out of shape because a person you don't know and will never see again feels the need to put their child in a shirt and name them a particular name? Focus on your own life and what you enjoy and you'll find the annoyances will drop away. Why? Because you'll realize how petty they are and how unnecessary pretentious articles such as this one just frustrate you and make your life that much less enjoyable. This is not that big an issue in this city-- if it wasn't big strollers that were being inconsiderate it'd be something else. Move on and find something more beneficial to talk about!

new mom May 21, 2008 at 7:23 p.m.

I'm a new mom. It is disturbing for me to read the comments from the anti-baby side. I don't understand where all the anger and agression came from. Every person who posted was a baby at one time. Every baby was introduced to public space by a caregiver. Entering public space is a necessity, not a priveledge or entitlement. Keeping a baby locked indoors all day so as not to inconvenience the anti-baby public is cruel and insensitive.

It would be considered discrimination to ban the elderly, or ask them to leave an establishment. Why is it acceptable to consider children unwelcome in public space?

I was afraid for my safety when pregnant. Driving on Toronto roads was hazardous, I was rear-ended by a drunken careless driver. Riding the TTC was a nighmare. rarely did someone offer up their seat to me...even when in the last-trimester.

Now with a baby, I am very concious of our impact on others when we venture out into the world. I bought a small umbrella stroller, and I pause on the street to let people pass. When I know I'm going into a space that isn't stroller friendly (like a small store, or a non-wheelchair accessible subway stop) I will bring my baby carrier. However, carrying a 20LB baby all day is really hard on my back. On occasion I'll take the stroller on the TTC(especially in a snow or rain storm). People push to get past me when entering or exiting the bus or subway. Very rarely will someone help me up or down stairs. Riding the escalator is nerve-wracking. People push and bump into me. I've almost fallen trying to get off the escalator.

You cannot control the cries of an infant. They cry if they are bored, or lonely or hungry or sleepy. My guy cries all the time. If I exited public space everytime my kid made a noise....I'd never go anywhere. We try to visit only baby friendly establishments. Many places we used to go to when childless are off limits to us now.

I remember my last trip to Italy. Multi-generational families would go out at night to restaurants, and walk through the streets. I think it is unfortunate that Toronto is not as child-friendly as Rome.

Michelle (michelle@doudoubebe.com) May 22, 2008 at 4:13 p.m.

While I do agree that business owners who make their oeny from young families should make their places of business comfortable for those customers (duh....), strollers (whther they cost $50 or $1200) are not city-friendly in general.

Pick a beautiful sling or carrier - then you're 100% mobile and baby isn't likely to bother anyone. For the status or fashion conscious, they are some gorgeous ones out there for every age and style.

Layla May 23, 2008 at 3:44 p.m.

A funny parenting blog did a recent post on $1000 strollers and how parents are completely extravagant, attempting to be "hip."

http://bestparentever.com/2008/03/13/1-1...

Defending Stokke May 24, 2008 at 10:23 a.m.

Yes, I have a Stokke stroller and live in Old Town Toronto. Trust me, I did my research when it came to stoller shopping and my decision was not driven by any name brand or price. You many remember the Stokke stroller described in the Toronto Life Magazine as somewhat between a robot/spider.

Well, my decision to purchase the Stokke stroller was because it suits all of my needs such as:

(1) you can adjust the seat so that the baby sits high enough to be closer to you, high enough to be away from the car fumes and positioned well enough to give the child a good view of his or her surroundings;

(2) the stroller folds easy and stores away nicely in small condos and cars;

(3) the bag is removable and easy to access;

(4) the stroller seat can be positioned to face you and the other way;

(5) the stroller seat has 3 sitting positions (lay down, semi sitting position and upright). The upright position allows the child to sit as if he/she is in a high chair (good for sitting with you at the restaurant table);

(6) the hand is adjustable, so if you are tall this is definitely better for your back; and

(7) the stroller maneuvers exceptionally well.

Unfortunately, things that are designed smart and made with good quality cost more (we all know that). So please, enough with the expensive stroller talk, some people (like me) prefer to buy something that is worth buying.

Michelle (michelle@doudoubebe.com) May 24, 2008 at 12:18 p.m.

Sorry, I just had to pipe in to note that you could have easily saved yourself about $900 and been far more mobile by buying a good carrier instead of the robot-spider :)!

Monika May 26, 2008 at 9:50 p.m.

Hi Jennifer,

why don't you leave your stroller outside the coffee shop, lock it, and carry your baby into the coffee shop? Invest in a good baby carrrier. I am sick of the all or nothingness of parenting wars. Just because you wear your baby and use a stroller occationaly does not make you a bad parent, or result in an un-attached child. And just because you use a stroller doesn't mean you couldn't benefit from a good baby carrier - they are very handy at times!

Monika May 26, 2008 at 9:54 p.m.

Hi Carrie,

yes I agree with you totally, I think there are some times strollers are handy, but other times when it just makes sense to wear your baby or let them walk!

Everything in moderation, but it seems in the parenting wars, it is all or nothing phenomena, so sad.

Monika May 26, 2008 at 10:01 p.m.

Michelle.....

sorry will repeat my comment here. I don't know how big your baby is, but my 10month old is already nearly 23lbs and wearing him is fine when I don't have a lot of other stuff to carry. But I don't drive, and as such, a stroller really can come in handy when you go shopping with your baby. I've done the - carry my baby on the back and carry 20 more pounds by hand, and it is not fun. I can see your point of view as a babywearer, but you shouldn't judge people who use strollers anymore than stroller moms should judge babywears - I don't see why you can't make use of both depending on your needs, your situation and your baby needs. Personally I would never put a young baby (under 20lbs) in a stroller, I think babies need close contact with their mom, especially on cold Canadian winter days - but I really don't think it is good of you to judge moms who use strollers. Everyone has to figure out the best needs for their own families.

Kathy May 28, 2008 at 9:56 p.m.

Michelle, I know very few people who have had success with slings beyond early infancy, and only one person who has been able to use one exclusively (no stroller).

My first son was 33 pounds by the time he was a year, and carrying him anyway (in side sling, or in a back carrier) was completely unmanageable and hard on the back. My second son was a much more civilized size, but he screamed his head off every time I tried to put him in our sling. I was told by every sling-pusher out there that it would probably take him about a week to get used to, but after trying for 15 minutes each day for 5 days, I decided it was completely cruel to keep torturing him with that device. I do carry him in my arms when we go into stores / restaurants, leaving the stroller outside, but we definitely need a stroller.

I am very anti-car and I'm just not sure how I'd haul groceries for a family of four home if I didn't have a stroller. I'm certainly not strong enough to carry an 18 month old baby, along with several bags of groceries, and still hold my 4 year old's hand to cross the streets.

The only friend of mine who has successfully managed to use a sling exclusively (no stroller) relies on using her car for most errands - not exactly a goal to strive for in my mind.

Monika June 1, 2008 at 4:03 p.m.

Hey Kathy,

I totally agree!

I prefer to live without a car as well and use baby carriers and strollers - the mommy wars regarding this are silly, imho.

Michelle (michelle@doudoubebe.com) June 1, 2008 at 11:27 p.m.

Fair enough - I didn't mean to say that strollers have no place (I do own one myself!). However, most of the discussion here doesn't seem to be centered around how to make a no-car, no-stroller life work in the city - it's about whether it's reasonable to expect others to accomodate massive strollers in small public spaces. I was pointing out that baby doesn't automatically equal stroller.

Not to flog a dead horse, but wouldn't it make more sense to use a bundle buggy for your groceries and carry your little one rather than the other way around? This isn't really about the attachment piece of it (as babywearing is a tool not an end in and of itself), but the basic convenience.

I'm surprised to hear that you've not met very many people who had sling success beyond early infancy - that can often be the toughest time for a new mom to get the sling going. It tends to be easier when baby "feels" sturdier.

I find the whole mommy wars idea silly as well - we're all doing the best we can for our families.

Kathy June 2, 2008 at 10:48 p.m.

Michelle - my point was that it was a little uncalled for when you told the lady that she shouldn't have bought the Stokke that she obviously researched, and could have made do with just a sling. You don't know that she could have gone without a stroller, so don't suggest it.

And I fail to see the difference in inconvenience to those around me if I'm pushing a bundle buggy versus a stroller. I've had blue haired ladies run over my feet with those bundle buggies more often than I've ever had my feet run over with a stroller.

BTW - the reason most people I know gave up on baby wearing after early infancy is for a few reasons, but the main reason is weight. Regardless of baby's comfort level in a sling, it is very difficult to carry a child of 30 lbs or more in a sling. The other reason was that several of my friends said that once their babies were mobile (crawling, walking), they did not like being in the sling anymore. I know my 18 month old likes being carried a lot, but many of the babies in his play groups screech & wiggle away if you try to pick them up.

I agree that we're all trying to just do our best, but I thought that your suggestion that the Stokke lady wasted her money was a bit harsh (although probably not intended that way at all).

Tale of 3 strollers... June 2, 2008 at 11:12 p.m.

I honestly think the issues people have with big SUV type strollers have less to do with the space they take up, than resentment on the "indulgence" of them. Which leads me to wonder why people care so much what other people spend their money on.

When my first son was born 5 years ago, we bought a Graco travel system (this was before strollers were trendy). That Graco had zero suspension when I took my dog for walks on trails, and I started to worry about the baby shaking around like that, so we eventually bought a big all-terrain air-filled-tire big honking SUV type stroller, that is a beautiful ride even over bumpy trails. Funnily enough, both strollers are the same width from wheel to wheel, but the SUV-type one looks much bigger because it's tires are so much chunkier, and the seat is so much bigger. But the only time we've ever had dirty-stroller-looks is in the fancy one - for some reason people didn't resent the Graco shaken-baby-inducing-stroller, even though it was exactly the same width.

Also, we sometimes put both kids in the double bike trailer to get somewhere, then detach the trailer when we're there & use it as a stroller. Even though that is twice the width of our other strollers, people LOVE the bike trailer. They are constantly ooing over it and saying what fun it looks to ride in. No one says that about our pricey stroller, even though it truly does seem to be the nicest ride.

I think it's because people resent the indulgence of expensive strollers more than they do the size they take up.

clumsy June 3, 2008 at 10:26 p.m.

I just want to mention something else about baby wearing. I had a baby bjorn carrier when my girl was smaller and it was very convenient for a quick trip by ttc to get groceries, however, especially during those winter months, I did sometimes feel rather uncomfortable putting her in there. My discomfort was saftey based. I have been known to slip or fall on occasion, and every time I wore her, I'd have to be so deliberate and careful and it made me nervous to be stepping down from a bus and unable to see my feet, and the carrier made me feel even more off balance than usual. Ice, snow, anything slippery... could have been an easy recipe for disaster. I had constant visions of falling and injuring her, and it was not such a remote possibility. So my point is - sometimes a stroller just makes more sense and is better for the baby.

restau-ranter June 7, 2008 at 9:16 a.m.

I agree with Lala.
I too prefer smaller more independent shops/restaurants...but I refuse(d) to change my kid on a dirty floor.
no thanks.
sometimes you just have to make a few sacrifices.
It's only for a short period of time.
Now that my daughter is 3 I can take her anywhere.
things are so much easier without a stroller to deal with.
In the mean time just go to starbucks, it's nit the worst place on the planet.

restau-ranter June 7, 2008 at 9:17 a.m.

I agree with Lala.
I too prefer smaller more independent shops/restaurants...but I refuse(d) to change my kid on a dirty floor.
no thanks.
sometimes you just have to make a few sacrifices.
It's only for a short period of time.
Now that my daughter is 3 I can take her anywhere.
things are so much easier without a stroller to deal with.
In the mean time just go to starbucks, it's not the worst place on the planet.

Watch your step! June 8, 2008 at 10:28 a.m.

Hi Clumsy!
Some advice: Despite a lot of parents really liking the Bjorn, it's actually a terrible carrier. It carries the weight on the parent's shoulders (which is too painful) and pulls at the baby's crotch (which hasn't been proved harmful but doesn't seem that comfortable either). If you're worried about the safety of the baby, try a better carrier like the Beco Butterfly-- it has a built in insert so the baby will always stay in the carrier. As for slipping and falling? Well... that's another story.

UmmZahra June 8, 2008 at 10:44 p.m.

I just love how all these people go on and on about baby carriers. NOT everyone can wear a sling or baby pack all flippin day. People have things to carry in addition to the baby (purse, diapers, drink, shopping bags, snacks). Those who say if a kid can walk should walk - GET A CLUE! 1 1/2 to 2 year olds walk slow, run anywhere and everywhere, and get tired and need to be carried (who's going to carry a toddler for 2 hours while they nap?).

And while some people think that the anti-stroller thing is only because the strollers are expensive, posh, or hip, there's a whole lot Toronto mamas that don't have 1,200 to spill out on strollers. They STILL get the same ill looks and treatment with their cheap 100$ strollers.

The truth is children (strollers, noise makers, mess makers, etc) are like homeless people, mentally ill people in that they seem to get immature people all mixed up. Those people are impatient and unkind and don't like when anything interferes with there way of life. Sad part is it is still acceptable to hackle people with children. Other countries aren't so anti-child, anti-family has Canada. Perhaps this what Canadians get from their good ol' buddies down south!

DJ June 10, 2008 at 4 p.m.

You should call this posting neighbourhood wars. Lesleyvillers arguing with Parkdalers. Can we hear from Liberty Village too??
Here's a newsflash: there are inconsiderate people living everywhere in every neighbourhood. I live in Seaton Village where the park is devoted to dogs and the kids are fenced in, and where the hockey parents park in private parking spaces, and block driveways. I have three teenagers, and if you think people are giving your kids the evil eye now, wait until they grow up a bit. Everyone loves to hate a teenager and it is no less heartbreaking than someone hating your infant. My neighbourhood is known for many things: tree huggers, crunchy granola, professor birkenstock types. I'm expected to pet and converse with every passing dog and smile admiringly at every dread-locked child or I'm thought to be anti-social. Great. You've got a dog, and great, you've got a kid who you are encouraging not to live for material wealth (while living in your 600K + house and eating all your meals at Grapefruit Moon). I've actually had someone object to the wasp catchers in my back yard! Oh, and ya, please stop sneering at me for wearing lipstick.

Song June 10, 2008 at 10:04 p.m.

And don't forget, most kids who are burned are burned from either putting a plug in their mouth (stored electricity), or being held by an adult drinking scalding coffee.

Loving North Toronto June 10, 2008 at 10:10 p.m.

I'm lucky enough to have lived with my small children in two very baby friendly neighbourhoods - the first being Bayview / Eglinton area, the second being Yonge / Lawrence area. Even when I go to small neighbourhood stores and try to park my stroller outside, the storeowner usually comes to the door and encourages me to bring it in while she holds the door. Restaurants have all been very accomodating, people are always smiling at my kids.

It's usually when I leave our neighbourhood that we get the evil eyes - most recently at the Zoo! Someone told me at one of the exhibits that I should let my child walk (he's 18 months) because it was too busy with all the strollers around. This was at an outdoor exhibit at the zoo... Not sure what planet this lady was from that she thought an 18 month old could walk the zoo (he probably couldn't even walk from the car to the entrance before zonking out). Also, it was the zoo during March Break - of course it's busy!!!

Then I come back to my neighbourhood and everyone's helping with doors, people everywhere step aside on the sidewalks to accomodate walkers, runners, stroller-pushers, kids on bikes, dog walkers, you name it... So while North Toronto might be a little less "cool" than some of these other 'hoods, it sure is my pick for raising my kids!

DJ June 11, 2008 at 2:57 p.m.

I raised my kids in North Toronto too, and I agree, it's baby and kid friendly, but it has it's share of intolerance too. As my kids grew older it just got too kid-centric and dog centric for me. The last straw was when someone rudely asked my 84 year old mother to "move lady!" so she could get by with her two dogs. My teenaged son worked in a retail store on Bayview and some of the stories he told me about stressed out parents and their holy terror kids would curl your hair. My son was told to "f*&k off" regularly by "adults". It's all about the feeling of "entitlement", and if you've got it, the rest of us had better watch out.

Loving North Toronto June 12, 2008 at 11:33 p.m.

DJ - that's awful that someone said that to your mother - we've never seen anything like that. I don't think any of our elderly neighbours have had to shovel, rake, mow, or cart their garbage to or from the street in years - the rest of us on the block do it for them. And several of us check before going to the grocery store whether any of them need anything. I guess it's not the area so much as your particular neighbours.

I have seen the rude parents, though - usually accompanied by even ruder kids. I wonder when parents act that way what lessons they think they are teaching their kids.

I sometimes think the Internet hasn't done us any favours in this regard - it's so easy to slam someone online or offer up harsh criticism, because we aren't looking them in the whites of the eyes. But this erosion of restraint seems to be seeping more and more into the rest of our lives, too.

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 11:02 a.m.

Carrie: You obviously don't have children, and Sally I don't know if you do, but your posts crack me up. You try being 5'2 and carrying a 20 lb six month old around in a sling (which they don't fit in anymore anyway), after the back problems associated with pregnancy and childbirth. Another issue with the sling: if it's winter and icy, you're better off with a stroller IMHO.

Most kids don't learn to walk until at least a year. And when they do start walking they are really slow and wobbly. It's not like you could go to the grocery store and get them back in time for lunch or a nap - it will take hours!

I used a rather large stroller in the winter, because the big wheels were essential for getting through snow, and I couldn't afford a bugaboo, which are really compact. I have a small umbrella stroller for summer. But I agree with this poster. Local businesses which get heavy mom and stroller business all day should be more accomodating. I've been to a kid's store, where there were steps to get in!

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 11:13 a.m.

Another point I wanted to make: the problem with my big stroller (a Quinny) is it had the whole car seat set up and the buckle on the car seat was so difficult to do up... my bundled up baby would shriek and cry as I struggled with it and my mom couldn't do it up at all when we visited her.

In hindsight, I wondered if we should have tried to find a bugaboo on Craig's list. My friend did that, and it's easy to use. I honestly wound up staying home through the first first few weeks (except to walk the dog) because I found it overwhelming. I caught on, eventually and everything became fine, but if a new mom has the cash to spend on a bugaboo all the power to them, IMO.

Amy June 13, 2008 at 3:04 p.m.

I find this stroller dialogue tiresome. My daughter is now 2, and neither a sling nor baby carrier is practical. Strollers are a fact of life with small children. People would never complain about the elderly using walkers in public spaces: to do so would be discrimination on the basis of age. In my view, this visceral hate for strollers in Toronto is a similar example of age discrimination. Furthermore, the cost of any given stroller is irrelevant to the discussion of congestion of public spaces due to stoller use.

I acknowledge that many parents in this city bring their children to places which are truly adult spaces do not exercise adequate discipline over their kids. However, it seems that courtesy, consideration and respect for others is something that Torontonians increasingly lack in general-parents and non-parents alike!!!

carrie June 13, 2008 at 3:37 p.m.

Lisa: in fact I specifically said I could see why people use strollers when they (a) have a bad back or (b) have to get groceries. What I was actually wondering went back to the original post, in which the people were using strollers to go to a coffee shop and sit down.

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 3:41 p.m.

Carrie: I use a stroller to go to the coffee shop and sit down. Why? Because it's difficult to hold a baby while drinking coffee, especially if they are awake. On the other hand, you could keep them in a stroller, they can look around, enjoy, as you take one moment for yourself. And, my back wasn't so bad that I couldn't carry my baby in a sling. But he was huge. He didn't fit in the sling after a few months AND I didn't like the sling anyway. It's much more comfortable PUSHING a baby in a stroller, than carrying him in a sling, at least IMHO. Check out Amy's post -- it's ridiculous to judge people because they want to use a stroller whether it's for a coffee or not!

carrie June 13, 2008 at 3:46 p.m.

Lisa: I don't know how much more of a disclaimer I can offer you, but that was a question, not a judgment, and I thank you for explaining your reasoning.

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 3:49 p.m.

Carrie: You're right, and I apologize as on looking back, it was more Sally that was judging. Calling people who use strollers lazy. I find that ironic considering my hubby and I used our jogging stroller (a hand-me-down) when my babe was six months old to train for a half marathon. Lazy indeed!

carrie June 13, 2008 at 4:47 p.m.

Wow, I didn't even know there were jogging strollers--that's a great idea! Congrats on the half-marathon!

Mona June 13, 2008 at 9:15 p.m.

Carrie, I don't doubt that the time you spent with your niece was lovely while she ambled along looking at ladybugs, this is an indulgence that in everyday life few people can accomodate - it's something special between you and your niece born of the fact that you're probably not rushing around when you're with her, and you're one-on-one with her. Many parents have two or more small children, so accomodating one's lady-bug adventures is not always possible. Plus, very few people can afford to turn the daily jaunt to the grocery store into a 2 hour affair to accomodate a beginner walker - otherwise, dinner doesn't get served, laundry doesn't get done, older children don't get picked up from school in time...

And saying that if a kid is too big to be carried, they're old enough to walk is silly - babies are bigger these days, and it is not unusual to find a 12-month old who is 30 pounds. Considering most slings are only rated for 35 pounds and under (and they really aren't good for much beyond 25 pounds), what are these parents supposed to do? Many 12 month olds do not know how to walk, and those that do are usually drunken sailors at this stage, tumbling in all kinds of directions. Conducive maybe to a lovely afternoon with one's niece, but not conducive to living day-in-day-out and actually taking care of the remaining needs of the family (groceries, dinner prep, care of siblings, laundry, etc.)

carrie June 16, 2008 at 3:44 p.m.

Mona, I have a feeling my sister in law would agree with you completely about the cuteness (or lack thereof) in looking at ladybugs! :)

Michelle (michelle@doudoubebe.com) June 18, 2008 at 12:17 a.m.

I should leave this alone, but I'm having trouble with the general directions suggesting that carriers are trendy, short-term solution that doesn't really work for most people.

Mothers have been carrying their babies for longer distances, under more difficult circumstances with far less ergonomic carriers than those we have available today for all of human history.

We're not used to it in this little sliver of time and space - most of our expsoure is in the form of highly commericalized carriers absolutely not meant for long-term wearing.

If a parent prefers to use a stroller, that's fine and they ought to be reasonably able to do this.

The flip side is that more and more parents are figuring out that it's actually not easier to haul a stroller up and down the stairs or search endlessly for an elevator (or, if your kids are like mine, carry the kid in arms while trying push the empty stroller around!).

Rather than dismissing this as a solution to many of the frustrations urban parents face, maybe we should be wondering why so few of them have access to good quality information and carriers that deliver the functions they need.

ps: A previous poster may well have had a good reason for needing Stokke, but the advantages she *listed* could have largely been acheived a well-fitted carrier.

Defending Stokke June 21, 2008 at 12:59 p.m.

Michelle, I have terrible lower back problems and unable to use a child carrier. I really don't find using a stroller in the City to be inconvenient at all. I usually do my research ahead of time when dining out or traveling. For instance, I call the restaurant and let them know that I will be bringing a stroller and if they can accomodate me. I really don't want to inconvenience anyone. Also, when traveling, I plan out my route and find out which subway stations have elevators. I'm not sure that your experience has been the same as mine, but you may want to keep an open mind when entering into such discussions. Take care

Eddie June 22, 2008 at 9:41 a.m.

It is not so much that babies are taking over Toronto. What bothers me are the parents of the babies who think that it is ok to crowd up a busy bus or streetcar at rush hour without any consideration for the other passengers. What happened to baby sacks that parents slung around their own bodies in order to create a little more space for others? I notice parents being really inconsiderate in this area. I also notice that parents never use soothers anymore to shut up their screaming babies but they sure take the time to yap on their cellphones while drinking their Starbucks while ignoring their screaming babies who may be disturbing others out for an enjoyable Sunday. If the parents are not ignoring their screaming babies then they are busy yelling at the top of their lungs at their babies because their babies did not eat the right way or sit the right way or they just yell at their babies because they have waited too long in line at Starbucks. I do not believe babies so much are taking over Toronto, its the annoying and inconsiderate parents who are. They are the real babies.

Lisa June 23, 2008 at 11:51 a.m.

Eddie: read some of the posts above about why people don't use carriers. Regarding the screaming babies, sometimes there's nothing we can do.

margaret June 23, 2008 at 8:21 p.m.

Anybody want to know where you can get those cool AB CD tees worn by the babes in the Baby Wars Forum ads? I found them at http://www.oliebollen.com/detail.aspx?ID...

They're in the US but they ship to Canada pretty cheap.

Elizabeth June 23, 2008 at 11:06 p.m.

I use a carrier with my baby (actually a moby wrap), with my middle child it's now a Kid Kart (ped wheel chair), I'm too small to carrier two kids in a wrap and even if I could it doesn't do crap to help fix my son's back. Before we got the kid kart we used a stroller, twin if we weren't taking public transit and umbrella if we were, my son's two now and too big and unstable for a wrap even if I wanted to use one. He also can't walk, so don't be so fast to judge people who have to use strollers...you never know the reason behind the use!

Eddie June 24, 2008 at 3:30 a.m.

Elizabeth, I never said in my post that parents should not use strollers. I posed a question about whatever happened to baby sacks as I see more strollers/carts being used then sacks and I am a frequent TTC patron. So, don't be so quick to judge me as someone who has to wait for a second bus because 3 strollers are blocking me from boarding the bus. Why should I be late for work because you chose to get pregnant and have your snotty nosed brats? I don;t buy the argument that you cannot carry your babies around with you. Do you see any Mothers in Africa carting their babies around in strollers?

Eddie June 24, 2008 at 5:06 a.m.

Lisa

Why not have your coffee at home? Starbucks, Zellers and Home Sense all sell coffee makers. If you can afford a stroller, you can afford a coffee maker. That way, you can have your coffee, your screaming baby will make all the noise it wants in your own home.

Eddie June 24, 2008 at 5:14 a.m.

Amy

No because the elderly do not sit around all day screaming and crying because their coffee drinking cell phone chatting moms didnt pay attention to them. Oh sorry, was I discrimininating against moms using cell phones. Better call the Human Rights Commission on that one.

Eddie June 24, 2008 at 5:17 a.m.

Margaret

Heres a tee-shirt for sale: Hi I am a loud mouthed snotty nosed brat baby, my mom sits on her ass all day drinking Starbucks and ignoring me.

Johnny June 24, 2008 at 3:46 p.m.

Here’s another T-Shirt slogan:

"Hi, I have a mother who thinks I am a fashion accessory and is using me as a tool to express that she is still cool through this t-shirt I am wearing which is clearly some entrepreneur’s contrived idea that you can still be a parent and hip."

Here’s yet another.

"Please, donate some money to me for the therapy sessions I will need in the future because I will be spending my formative years having to live as a miniature version of what my parents used to be when they went to college parties and listened to AC/DC."

Frank June 24, 2008 at 3:54 p.m.

Funny, how about this one.

"My parents bought a $700k semi-detached rundown house in [insert cool neighborhood here] and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

Eddie = Johnny = Frank June 24, 2008 at 9:51 p.m.

Eddie, do you think parents are taking the TTC with no destination in sight? If you are out all day with a small child, or even just walking for a couple of hours, a snuglie is not feasable unless your baby is really teeny still - if the entire journey was just a TTC ride, yes we would not need strollers - but usually we are taking the TTC to get our babies (& strollers) to a particular destination (that would require the use of the stroller).

If you're consistently late to work, try getting up earlier - your boss will get fed up with you blaming babies soon.

Here's a T-Shirt Saying back at you: "I'm whining because I'm a baby - what's your excuse?"

T Shirts June 24, 2008 at 9:54 p.m.

Margaret - those T Shirts are available at several places in Toronto, for 1/2 the price of that US website. We bought ours at Love Child (at Yonge & Eglinton).

Anonymous June 24, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.

I think Eddie's actually late for work all the time because he's posting on the baby wars forum from 3:30 - 5:30 in the morning.

Annoyed Chick June 25, 2008 at 10:56 a.m.

To all the baby mama out there ranting about these comments, I suggest that you look at these comments and really reflect on the truths that they pose to our society. Perhaps you are making a spectacle out of yourselves due to the innate distress you feel between the two worlds of career and homemaker. Homemakers aren't cool like they used to be, so now you make your poor little kids wear interminable little outfits and silly grown up faux hawks because you were picked on in the school yard, perhaps due to a lack of style or cool. Just because you were a no name brand nerd, doesn't mean that the rest of us have to put up with your dramatization of your inadequecies via your offspring.

Children are not the issue here. It is the adults popping them out way before they have a clue how to rear and manage child behaviour and their various spontanious problems. Many mother's to be are actually bold enough to believe that having a child is no different than picking up few things at the groceries. Child rearing is an art form that has been passed down for thousands of years and clearly has been lost over the last few generations.

Whatever happened to children must be seen and not heard? You are turning into societal carcatures of spoiled, poorly mannered, self-entitlists.

Eddie June 25, 2008 at 11:31 a.m.

Actually, I am late for work because the 3 year old brat that lives next door to me is kept up all hours of the night by his stupid parents who do not know what time to put him to bed. He is the same brat who runs up and down the halls of our apartmnent building screaming at the top of his lungs. We cannot say much to him because he has rights and as adults we have none. He is typical of the other little brats that you parents have running around the city taking over our parks, our shopping malls etc. I have lived in Toronto all my life and can remember back in the seventies, children never behaved the way they do today and I am happy that there are still some parents who take the time to raise their children right. What really bothers me is that common courtesy for others is gone. One can see it everywhere they go, parents bringing their screaming babies to work for a visit while they are on maternity leave, parents letting their screaming babies carry on and on in public without a reprimand, parents leaving their screaming babies unattended at stores like Winners (a store nortorious for letting this happen)and the list goes on.... If you want to have a baby, go ahead, it is your right, if you want to use a stroller, go ahead it is your right but while you are doing so, stop stepping on my rights and priviledges to enjoy myself in the public space of Toronto by thinking you have the right to do anything at anytime or anywhere because you have a "baby".

Lisa June 25, 2008 at 12:53 p.m.

Wow Eddie. You are a fascist. Sorry but the babies are not going away. or did you want to send them all to concentration camps?

And why don't I stay at home and drink coffee? Why don't you ask the coffee shop owners in my area how they would feel if the moms (their main business Monday to Friday) stopped coming.

Lisa June 25, 2008 at 12:54 p.m.

oh and by the way Eddie, when my son starts crying I leave. If I'm in a restaurant, I get them to pack it up and I LEAVE. Is that good enough for you??? Perhaps I should wear a mark on my forehead declaring MOTHER so that people like you can ban me from any establishments... again FASCISM.

Johnny June 25, 2008 at 3:01 p.m.

We’re not expecting babies to be sent to concentration camps, but at least you can carry some duct tape and a rolled up sock in your oversized stroller for those moments when you refuse to make your precious little bundle of DNA stop screaming or throwing a tantrum.

Eddie is right in one claim, children being reared today are not the same as it used to be and I’m not referring to being pro-spanking. I’m talking about how parents actually used to take their children’s behaviour into consideration when around other adults instead of letting them run wild all over the place when out in public. You’re not raising creative and free individuals; you’re just raising more brats with no sense of accountability. More Dick Cheney’s for the world.

P.S.
Toronto’s downtown neighborhoods used to be true places of diversity where unique lifestyles were actually being led instead of the miniature bedroom (boredom) communities overtaken with pasty middle-class stroller pushers expecting everyone to conform to the doctrine of “family-friendly.” The suburbs existed for a reason – so we didn’t have to see or hear your trust-fund retards running all over the place or listen to inane conversations about junior’s “special gifts.” You’re not making downtown a special and vibrant place; you’re just recreating a double-tall Venti version of Richmond Hill with an extra shot of Vanilla.

Eddie June 25, 2008 at 10:15 p.m.

Lisa,

You sound like some of those other parents, you know the angry ones who are too angry themselves to teach their children how to behave properly in public. It seems so easy for you to brand anyone who has opposing views to yours, so much that you label the person as a facist and not a free thinker. Same thing happened to Gandhi, homosexuals, astrologers, women, farmers and shopkeepers. Over the years they have all had an opinion because they were just as pissed off as the rest of us but sadly they all were branded as facists. On another note, I really would hate to see you stop going to your favorite coffee shop, after all I would not want to deprive you of the enjoyment of drinking your $5.00 cup of coffee that is being sold to you on the backs of people in third world countries that slave all day for you to enjoy that fresh rich roasted flavor.

Hannah June 26, 2008 at 8:45 a.m.

Listen Up Lisa,

Your comments about facism are thoughtless and cruel comments that are offensive to the real atrocities and indignities that have been faced by the Jewish people during World War 2- Holocaust. You are taking the issue of baby wars too far as no one has suggested that children and their mothers be subjected to senseless cruelty and violence for merely existing. The statements from you in this area are frivolous and affect those who have sadly lost loved ones through the war. Think about that while you are holding your baby and your coffee at the same time.

Me June 26, 2008 at 2:36 p.m.

Just a note to Eddie - kids over the age of 2 pay to ride the TTC, so those kids you complain about having to let on the TTC first are probably paying customers, same as you. If I get to the subway and there is someone standing in front of me with a bike that prevents me from getting on the subway, I usually think "what crappy luck to be behind this person" but it doesn't entitle me to think I should go ahead of them or that they shouldn't ride - same as when business people from downtown roll these giant laptop suitcases on the subway with them every night. When I get on the subway to come home from work, my feet are constantly being run over by those things, and they are constantly tripping me or taking up valuable room, but I wouldn't think for a moment that this makes me more entitled to the room on the subway than these laptop-owners!

I think there is a sense of entitlement on both sides - I have seen some parents refuse to leave a restaurant when their kids are bored & ready to go, expecting other patrons to put up with them. And then there are people like you who feel entitled to everything being kid-free, apprently including public transit. And coffee shops, which every coffee shop owner out there would disagree with you on, since the mommy-crowd is their bread & butter.

But I would say the vast majority of people I have met are normal, well adjusted people not falling into either of these groups - most parents I see will leave a store or restaurant if their kids start acting up, and most non-parents I know don't have the toxic anti-kid attitude that some people on this forum have.

Me June 26, 2008 at 2:48 p.m.

Hannah, I think Lisa was using the term "fascist" more to describe extremist attitudes, like Eddie's suggestion that parents not be allowed to leave the house with their kids, and should have to drink coffee at home rather than where he drinks his coffee. I don't think she was likening people on this site to Nazis. And I also don't think her use of the term "fascist" was any worse than the other term that pops up over and over throughout these forums - stroller nazi. The suggestion that parents & their kids should be isolated in their homes, without contact with the outside world is indeed senseless cruelty & extremist in nature, and is what I think Lisa was reacting to.

Eddie June 26, 2008 at 4:21 p.m.

Me,

Wow, because I have a difference of opinion and because I do not have any children or strollers that makes me a person with an extremist attitude. Wow, no wonder people that live in Toronto are so polite and uptight and never speak their mind, if they debate or dialogue about something then they are made to feel inferior to the status quo. That kind of attitude is why people keep bullying others in the schoolyard and workplace because the bullied have a different opinion, hairstyle, clothing, whatever. Maybe if people like you got a little more pissed off once in a while instead of suppressing all your feelings or thoughts about the lap-top carrying TTC patron, you could spend less time carrying around your big bag of turd like everyone else in Toronto does. Oh sorry, did I sound cynical or judgemental in my opinion? I'm allowed, after all it's called Canada, remember free speech?

Hannah June 26, 2008 at 5:20 p.m.

Dear Me, oh my! You seem to think that I am slow and did not understand Lisa. I thank you kindly for explaining to me your version of concepts being thrown around on this blog forum. However, I must point out that my comments were made to point out Lisa's ridiculous and petulant comparison to what actual Jews faced, during a real war. There is no comparison! Eddie is a just a frustrated bloke letting off some steam, and so are you by the way (letting off steam that is). This is a baby war article written to evoke us at the core of most people's sensitivities; chilren. I understand where Lisa is coming from, but clearly you nor Lisa are Jewish and probably have no idea how offensive it is to compare a mildly heated debate to the actual mass murder and torture faced by men, women and children. Paaalease!! Annonymous blog postings allow people to vent in a healthy manner on both sides of the debate.

What Annoyed Chick said in postings earlier echoes my own sentiment of the lack of sensitivity and privilidge that some people feel in conducting their social behaviour in public and on an internet forum.

Lisa may I suggest that you go to a library or google "concentration camp" and get acquainted with the fact that what you face in your life is not persecution, but the freedom to live it the way you want, regardless of anyone, which is a privelidge many people do not have today around the world. So, I don't feel bad for you that Eddie made a few comments that hurt your feelings. I'm not suggesting your life is a cake walk, nor that you have it easy. Everyone faces challenges in their lives. Motherhood/Fatherhood is both joyful and hard. But, please have some decorum with the concentration camp and facist statements. Clearly, no one is going to force anyone to stay home and drink their hot beverages all by their lonesome...or else how will our economy survive without our yummy mummies? I am biting my nails at the thought of Starbucks going out of business!!

Amazed! June 26, 2008 at 6:01 p.m.

Lisa, if you are one of those parents that leaves when your child cries, then Eddie obviously was not addressing you. Why did you take it so personally?! I think the substance of all the comments (snarky and irrelevant remarks on neighbourhoods, house and stroller prices and efficiencies of the various child "carry-arounds" aside) is that people are addressing the parents of those children that are badly behaved.

I was just on a flight with a mother with unruly and extremely noisy children. Initially, everyone thought the children quite cute - right up until they started behaving like Lucifer's spawn! I had to ask the flight attendant to ask her to control them. She, the mother, decided to pick it up with me, claiming that I was being mean as her children were only 3 and 5. I soundly told her off. I knew that through all her righteous indignation, she knew she was wrong. I knew that because she then started to actively SUPERVISE them. She pulled out toys and I actually heard her asking them to quiet down whenever they got worked up again. Guess what: the children were quiet as lambs from that point on (for the last 90 minutes of the flight). The lady in front of those two children (seated next to me) arrived at Pearson with a migraine! Is that fair, especially as the mother could have done more to make this a better experience for others? There were babies on that flight. They cried for a few minutes then fell asleep. No one said a word about them!

Furthermore (and this is from someone who raised a child at a tender age) how cruel are you to have your children restricted to places that are not conducive to them for extended periods of time?! Gosh, I've seen parents at the movies with toddlers who could barely talk! Is that surround sound not bad for their ears? Are your children really appreciating these shows? Is this really for their benefit? Don't you think they will be in a better environment at home, watching DVDs? Remember, they do grow up! My mother had five and would not take us to certain places or subject us to long flights until we were old enough to do so. I know that there are situations where you must travel, socialize etc with children but I get from these selfish my-children-will-never-prevent-me-from-doing-the-things-I-like-to-do parents that they have no issue with the fact that their children are affecting others. As for people who accuse others of being child haters, I have never seen a person react adversely to a well-behaved child, NEVER!

Amazed June 26, 2008 at 6:02 p.m.

As for those pregnant people who complain that people did not give them seats on the bus (I can testify that I have NEVER seen this), this is not an anti-baby move! I’m sure (and sadly so) that the elderly and infirm have similar stories. I would put that down to slight impoliteness (you're not sick, just pregnant) or it may be that the people who are sitting have some malady of their own that is not as obvious as pregnancy. I decided to return to work (totally Xena-like) but one week after surgery. I looked perfectly fine, but you could not tell that I had stitches on my belly! I would most certainly not have given you my seat! I also remember a mother and child on the Bay bus. Every morning people gave up their seats to them. Unless that child (she must have been two or three) got the seat she wanted, she would throw a fit and point to the one of her choosing. On every occasion, someone would comply. The mother said nothing to the child!

Finally, I'm really shocked at the entitlement of some of these parents. I would have thought that, as people had children older these days, they would have been more responsible and willing to put their children first. Gosh, you would have lived a long life of freedom thus far! Instead, I continue to be amazed by this whole Starbucks psychology (my new term) that says that your life should continue as normal and everyone must share in the wonders of your "little Billy". Perhaps you need to get off your high horses and think! There is a time and place for everything. My friend had a rambunctious child. The minute he started up, she packed him up and left. This happened even at her sister's daughter's birthday party. That's being RESPONSIBLE! Over time, as he matured, she was able to stay later at social functions. Yes, children are fundamental. Well-behaved children are wonderful and I think the retired understand that this is how their pensions get funded! Babies need a nurturing environment where they can scream to their hearts' desire. Remember, it may not only be non-parents complaining (even though they have every right to do so). Think also about the parent that pays for a babysitter in order to take a rare night out who does NOT need to be subjected to your screaming child, or your husband watching on in rapt attention in the LADIES' room as he likens your breast feeding of the 100 millionth child to the wonder of the discovery of the atom!

Eddie June 26, 2008 at 7:13 p.m.

Amazed

You hit the nail right on the head. I was actually attempting to address and discuss how ill-mannered some parents can be when it comes to their babies/children. I like your comment about babies screaming at the movies. Now, AMC has an announcement of a screaming baby with the message Silence is Golden. In other words shut up! I must say I do feel quite a few parents could not care less what their cute adorable babies do in public. I once saw a Mother letting their 4 year old crap on the sidewalk in broad daylight. I have also seen the curly-topped moppets running up and down on the TTC bus like it was a playground while their Mothers yap away on their cellphones or how about this one- Parents who let their brats stand on top of grocery carts. Where is the logic or safety in that? Lets not entirely blame the babies/ misbehaved brats, as I said in my earlier post, its the parents who have not learned any manners in public or otherwise and they have seemed to have handed it down to their poor little innocent children. Maybe the forum should be called Parents Who Know How to Have Babies But Still Do Not Know How to Have Manners

Me June 26, 2008 at 9:28 p.m.

Eddie, the only reason I said your attitude was extremist in nature was because you suggested parents with kids should have to stay at home all day long so you wouldn't have to listen to their kids - not because you disagreed with anyone. Several people here have posted things that drive them nuts about some parents, and I have nodded my head in agreement, others I have disagreed with, but figured their experience was different than mine, so who am I to try to change that? But you came off violently anti-parent and offered very unrealistic solutions (i.e. stay home and don't associate with the rest of the world).

Mother of 2 June 26, 2008 at 9:47 p.m.

Here's a tip to anyone who sees a mom who doesn't have control of her kids... try being nice instead of asking a third party to force the mom to control her kids (which will just make the parent more frustrated & defensive). You'll find it pays off for you in the end.

Like everyone else, moms get frustrated & impatient, and that's usually when our bad parenting begins (when the parent is frustrated or impatient, that transfers to the way they interact with the kids, which in turn brings out bad behaviour - kids respond to positive reinforcement way better than negative)

I was recently in a very long grocery store checkout line when my 4 year old decided to throw a full blown fit - we had been waiting for 20 minutes, and it was dinner, and he was done. Leaving wasn't an option since we needed the groceries for dinner that night. As I tried to control him to the sound of a critic behind me saying to her husband "too bad you can't spank other people's kids", I realized that my frustration was coming out in my voice, but I couldn't stop it. Then another lady said to me, "poor guy must be fed up being in such a long line at dinner, it's not always easy being a little kid". Instantly, my frustrations went away as I realized the truth of what she was saying, my tone of voice calmed down as I spoke to my son, and he in turn calmed down instantly. He was all smiles as we paid for our stuff, no evidence of the tantrum he'd been throwing 2 minutes previously.

Since then whenever I see a parent struggling with an out of control child, I always go over and offer whatever support I can, whether it's a kind word or simply a sympathetic smile, and most times that has translated into the parent calming down, then the kid calming down.

Not only will you find that offering a kind word to the mom works way better than offering her criticism at calming the situation, you'll probably feel better about yourself at the end of the day, too, knowing you helped boost someone up rather than kick them down.

Eddie June 26, 2008 at 9:47 p.m.

Me,

You are entitled to your opinion and I am also entitled to mine. I do not expect anyone to stay home all day, you can go out all you want, you see I have stopped going out as much as I used to because I am tired of having to remind parents that their little children are standing 20 feet away from them while their back is turned on them because they are too busy to watch their own children. By the way, I am not violently anti-parent, I have 2 of my own.

Eddie June 26, 2008 at 10:03 p.m.

Mother of 2

If you are going to have children, it is usually your responsibility to take care of them yourself. Yes, the world would be a much better place if everyone was kind but sadly whenever I have reached out to help a mother or father in distress, I have been told to mind my own friggen business. Just the other day at Loblaws, a Father let his little boy wander off (I think he was busy checking out some eggplants on sale) and I noticed his boy wandering too far. Out of concern, I asked him is that your son. The Father looked at me, shook his head and uttered I wish people would mind their own business. After so many experiences of caring for other peoples children and not having any appreciation in kind shown, I just do not care anymore. It is sad because it is supposed to be a community and we are supposed to be in this together but the parents I have run into are as I have said before lacking in any social manners or gratitude while letting their little Jimmys run wild.

Mother of 2 June 26, 2008 at 10:31 p.m.

Eddie, I didn't say it wasn't my responsiblity to take care of my kids. But people who add fuel to the fire by asking a flight attendant to make a mother control her kids are usually going to make a situation worse.

What I was saying is if you have to say anything, say something positive. If I had the experiences you had, I would do as you do and just not say anything. That way, you aren't actually makeing the situation worse.

So often it is in the wording and tone, too. Sometimes what you think is a helpful comment gets interpreted as a judgement, which is unfortunate. While it sucks when that happens, I still choose to continue in the vein "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" because I think that when people attack, criticize, or publicly judge, they escalate the problem.

Eddie June 27, 2008 at 7:29 a.m.

Mother of 2,

I fully understood what you were saying and I understood my own comment. You have to accept that its a forum of public opinion and debate and not everyone is going to agree with how you raise your children. I am however happy to know that you appreciate other members of the public giving you a helping hand but you are a rare example of how a parent should behave in public. About child safety- If children are running around wild on a plane and misbehaving, a passenger has every right to ask a flight attendant to ask the parents to keep their children in line. What would happen if the child hits his or her head while running and needs more medical attention than can be given at the time? Safety should be a priority for the parents, the safety of their children and other passengers whether thats in a car, plane or bus. Too often parents let their children have free reign over everything. Saying something positive to others does not always guarantee a positive reaction, some parents are just plain stupid and ignorant. Asking anyone, like myself however to not say anything because it would make the situation worse is not looking out for the best interests of the child or situation. As a Mother of 2, I am sure you realize what kind of world we live in today. It only takes a minute for a parent to turn their back in a store and there are always some creeps hanging around who like to snatch unattended children. It can happen to any parent. But why do I see so many parents walking away from their children and leaving them crying alone in public? Example: C'mon I do not have all day" "Boohoo, but I want this toy" "I am leaving bye" and the parents walks away leaving the 3 year old sitting on the ground crying. I see this on a weekly basis. As a person without children, I do not have to be a Father to see how alot of parents today fail to practice good discipline, concern for their childrens safety and welfare. Yes, tone of voice, words used etc play a part in interpersonal communications however again some parents do not possess that level of high impact communications or fail to understand it when it is being communicated to them out of regard for their children. As I said before, most parents today just do not know how to raise, communicate with their children because most of them do not even know how to communicate with the adults around them. Most, not all.

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:34 a.m.

Amazed, movies for mommies is for MOMMIES. That's why it's called that. Kids cry,breastfeed, etc etc. And they turn the noise down. You should check it out before you go on a diatribe about how it's so "wrong? As soon as my son started to crawl, I stopped going. I would walk there and he would SLEEP through the whole thing. We're talking the first few months. Why do I take this all so personally... because people like YOU who I've never met before call me CRUEL and tell me how to raise my child. Get over yourself.

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:35 a.m.

BY the way, what does "raised a child at a tender age" mean? It doens't sound like it was from birth, which means you may not have any experience with newborns!

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:36 a.m.

Amazed: some pregnant women are indeed sick.

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:43 a.m.

Mother for 2: I get what you are saying wholeheartedly. A friend of mine was in a Licks and her son threw a fit. She packed up and left... a woman was staring at her and it made her really anxious. Afterward the woman went up to her friend and said 'i want your friend to know that I had a son exactly like hers and he has grown up to be a wonderful man.' isn't that great?

Eddie: I wish you wouldn't tell parents how to parent. I hated when people did that to me. FYI - I wasn't doing anything 'wrong'. Once I had my baby in the sling zipped up in my down jacket and walked down the street to get groceries. A woman stopped me and told me he would get frostbite... another time I was walking down the street with an umbrella stroller and I got informed that my baby was getting a sunburn...which he didn't get by the way. It happened all the time - the sun was in his eyes (He had thrown off his hat,) etc etc etc

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:47 a.m.

Eddie: I can't believe you compared yourself to Ghandi. You with your negative anti-baby or anti-parents diatribe. And also, I don't drink $5 coffees. Can't afford them I'm afraid. I don't drink at starbucks. I go to the local place in my neighbourhood. Actually I don't even go any more, now that my child is walking .Again, I love how people who don't even know me make assumptions about what I do. PS. My comments about you were based on your extremist attitudes, as "me" tried to explain. cheers

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:50 a.m.

Hannah: I do apologize if I offended you. I just think the idea of not being allowed out of the house because of a person's age, is a bit extremist and discriminatory.

so why aren't you taking offense at the stroller-nazi comments? just wondering.

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 10:41 a.m.

Hannah: Just as an aside, my grandfather had a gun held to his head my members of a fascist government. Fortunately he lived to tell the tale. I realize others haven't been so lucky.

Amazed June 27, 2008 at 12:19 p.m.

Lisa, please do NOT put words in my mouth! I have NEVER referred to you as cruel, nor did I attempt to tell you how to raise your child. Please step down from your self-constructed soap box! As a matter of fact, I addressed you directly only in the first few lines of my dissertation. I clearly said that Eddie's note was not meant for you if your children are well behaved. I do invite you again to reread. Everything is plainly written. I now disbelieve everything you say about your child behaving well as you seem to be so defensive about a lot of things that you claim do not pertain to you!

In answer to your question, I was young and raised a newborn. Does that now make my perspective any more deserving?! I taught him boundaries, including time and place. Once we were alone in a public office and he was playing with a ball. He was three. My warning: as soon as someone enters you will need to stop. Someone entered and he tried to continue by sneaking glances at me to see how I would react (yes, children also know their limits). He tried and I stopped him. He very contentedly stopped right thereafter. Whenever we went out and he threw a tantrum, we went home. He learned that tantrums equal home and soon learned to cut that out.

Yes, some pregnant women are sick, but the point I was making is that SO ARE OTHERS!! Pregnancy is not an illness. The overwhelming majority of pregnant women are fine. Please wrap your head around the fact that society is not against pregnancy or children! Again, my note spoke to the fact that this is not unique to pregnant people. I am sure that the old and infirm have stories too! People are frustrated with parents who do not supervise their children and who are constantly defensive about that fact. By the way, you did not ask, but I will let you know that I did NOT go to a movie for mommies. READ! At no point did I say that that is what it was!! I will say again that I have NEVER heard a bad word about a well-behaved child, NEVER.

Amazed June 27, 2008 at 12:19 p.m.

Mother of two, I hear you. Sometimes a child just acts up. My godson was and is the most docile child you could find. He is now 14. A strange thing used to happen to him before he turned five. His mother would have him in the car. He'd be as contented and quiet as ever. They got to the mall and he got out of the car. He became Lucifer's spawn! She would caution him and enter the mall. He would take off and attack all the racks in the stores! She would take him back to the car. He would then become angel again! That's children for you and that's exactly why they (nor others) should not be tortured with those long sits in Starbuck's etc!

I ask you to read my note again. The parent sat on the plane and said NOTHING to those children until I said something. Based on her reaction to me, she felt that this is how 3- and 5 year-olds should behave! Once she got told off, their change was immediate. Are you saying that she needed compassion because she refused to supervise HER children? What was there to sympathize about? They were not crying or having a bad day of it. They were just being extremely rowdy. Please separate your grocery situation from other situations. Notice, I mentioned that babies cried on that flight and no one complained! I understand you may need to take your child grocery shopping. Understand though that even parents cannot stand a crying child, much less someone totally removed from that child. Again, when people complain about a crying child, you don't know what THEIR circumstances are! They may have been having a bad day as well. These notes are so ego centric. Your child is having a bad day so everyone who reacts adversely is so mean. Let’s take this one step further. You mentioned one person making a comment. I'm quite sure that there were at least 50 other people in the grocery. While that one person was entitled to their opinion, does one out of fifty opinions warrant your reaction? I think we are really in a bad way if parents of crying children not only want to deny others their right to vent, but expect people to comfort said parents, regardless of their own situations! Funny enough, I hang with a group of people who are all parents, save one. They are the most disgusted with the self-centered nature of the parents writing these notes!

Eddie June 27, 2008 at 12:31 p.m.

Lisa

If having an opinion, a point of view or a voice makes me appear extremist, I guess that also makes you one because you are not short on change in that department yourself. I really wish I also did not have to tell parents how to raise their children but like your Grandfather who had the gun held to his head, I too have witnessed first hand so many parents holding me hostage with their little brats misbehaving in public. I never compared myself with Gandhi, go back and re-read my post. I said Gandhi was also labeled a facist but then again what if I did compare myself with him? is that not allowed? Did I commit some kind of crime for identifying with someone who had an opinion?
It seems from your posts that you are really into labels instead of allowing the other person to voice their own opinion. Once again you want your fellow Canadian to keep quiet because he does not agree with you. Have I made you angry? Great! I think it is wonderful that theres a Mother out there who cares enough to stand up for what she believes in instead of the Mothers who never take a stand and sit on their ass all day complaining about their maternity leave. I applaud you for your defensive posturing, I compare it to Gandhi when he was kicking the British out of his country.

Elizabeth June 28, 2008 at 2:34 a.m.

Eddie you obviously missed that my son is wheel chair bound, no I wont be carrying him round anywhere I don't care that mother's in Africa do. I would not ever risk causing my son harm by not having him in his chair, I will not risk him ended up with a worse curvature of the spine just so people like you make it to work on time. I know from the stand point of a tax payer that I rather have a child in the proper equipment that keeps them medically stable then have to foot out extra to have that child endure countless expensive surgeries to fix a problem caused by making life easier for a "normal" person. Yes I gave birth to a "snot nosed brat" and that "snot nosed brat" was perfectly healthy until the doctors deprived him of oxygen for 1.5hrs resulting in damage to his brain. My comment was also not directed completely at you I was expressing to everyone that there is more then one reason for a child to NEED a stroller or in my son's case a wheel chair.

Eddie June 28, 2008 at 1:11 p.m.

Elizabeth

Never read or saw anywhere that your son was wheelchair bound. If, I missed that, I wholeheartly extend my apologies to you and your son. Yet, again my issue is not so much with wheelchairs, strollers, baby carriages, knapsacks, lap-tops, grocery bags etc. My issue is and was with parents of snot-nosed brats who do not know how to discipline their snot nosed brats. I certainly hope you were able to sue the hospital who did that to your son.

Lisa June 30, 2008 at 9:11 a.m.

Amazed: if you didn't call me 'cruel' who was this directed at?

Furthermore (and this is from someone who raised a child at a tender age) how cruel are you to have your children restricted to places that are not conducive to them for extended periods of time?! Gosh, I've seen parents at the movies with toddlers who could barely talk! Is that surround sound not bad for their ears? Are your children really appreciating these shows? Is this really for their benefit?

Lisa June 30, 2008 at 9:15 a.m.

Lisa

If having an opinion, a point of view or a voice makes me appear extremist, I guess that also makes you one because you are not short on change in that department yourself. I really wish I also did not have to tell parents how to raise their children but like your Grandfather who had the gun held to his head, I too have witnessed first hand so many parents holding me hostage with their little brats misbehaving in public. I never compared myself with Gandhi, go back and re-read my post. I said Gandhi was also labeled a facist but then again what if I did compare myself with him? is that not allowed? Did I commit some kind of crime for identifying with someone who had an opinion?

Eddie: It was your suggestion that I have to stay home with my child indefinitely that made me call you extremist. Like I said, when my child throws a tantrum, I try to leave wherever I am as soon as I can. But you're right, this has been a good debate. cheers.

Eddie June 30, 2008 at 1 p.m.

Lisa,

Anyone including myself, who thinks or suggests that anyone should stay home indefinitely is not being practical or realistic. I think before you make a comment or remark and label someone, its a good idea to check out the persons perception before you label the person as you did. I would have told you the same thing I am telling you now. As much as some people do not like strollers crowding up stores or temper tantrum throwing kids, the person can still be open-minded enough to compromise on things that piss them off. Your problem is that you are appear so defensive and see everything as an attack instead of a discussion or debate.Hopefully your child is learning how to discuss things from you and not growing up to be such a defensive personality. Cheers

Lisa June 30, 2008 at 2:05 p.m.

Eddie: When I read comments, I often take them at face value. YOu telling me to get a coffee maker and avoid coffee shops was impractical, but a tad offensive as well. Perhaps that makes me defensive, but it seems another poster thought similarly so I couldn't have been too off-base.

Having said that, I do tend to be sensitive sometimes which is why I pack up my child at the slightest whimper in public. sensitive for better or worse. As a parent (and especially as a mother) you are judged constantly for every choice you make. But I'm getting used to it more and more every day;)

Mother of 2 June 30, 2008 at 11:25 p.m.

I often wonder if it's due to how easy it is to bash someone online that we are seeing more and more situations where people bash each other in public, too. Or maybe it's due to the reality tv frenzy, where we feel we can be observers & critics of each others lives?

I'm continually amazed at the people who will condemn each other (quite loudly and publicly) for all kinds of things - and it's not just baby wars I'm talking about. Parents are both the condemned & the condemners, there's the dog owners versus the anti-dogs, drivers versus cyclists, the list goes on. It seems everyone is so obsessed with pointing out each others failings these days that civility has gone out the window.

Honestly, there are days I wonder... are our lives all so empty now that we have to obsess over how other people are leading their lives, and how we would do it differently? My girlfriend was walking her colicky infant yesterday back and forth on her front lawn in middle of the day, and a stranger came up and yelled at her 2 month old to be quiet, then told the mother if she couldn't shut her baby up, she shouldn't take her out of the house. What is the world coming to when a new mom can't pace in her own front yard to soothe a baby with reflux and gas pain? How cruel are people getting that they would yell in a 2 month old baby's face?

Eddie July 1, 2008 at 8:03 a.m.

Mother of 2

I do not think posters here are bashing each other, they are merely voicing an opinion, having a safe debate online, ageeing and or disagreeing, standing up for what they believe in. I think its important that we all become observers and take a critical eye towards what is happening with and to other people. We are all here on this planet to learn from others even if it means we do not agree with the way others behave or conduct themselves. However there is a fine line, such a thing called a boundary. Perhaps, people on this post do not like some of the things I have said but thats too bad, its what makes the world much more interesting as humans are not one-dimensional, they are multi-complex beings. What bothers me is that everyone feels such a need to also agree with one another all the time. People are so interested in playing it safe, behaving in a careful manner but this seems to be what has got the human race in trouble. As I said before, there are boundaries and even limits to what people should and should not do. I feel from most of these posts that people are sad, lonely and frustrated with life itself and that tends to bleed into how they interact and treat each other but... dialogue is healthy, what is not healthy is yelling at others regardless of their age, race, class, socio-economic status, sexual orientation, you know their basic human right to exist. Some of my comments have been said in jest with a touch of sarcasim because as a human being who one day might bring a child into this world, I find that there is so much apathy and coldness out there. It is like friendship towards others has become obselete. I fear that one day the ability to actually be human and be treated as such will make us obselete. One only has to look at September 11 and how certain governments like China for example treat their citizens and lets not forget Katrina and the image of an elederly woman dead in her wheelchair being nibbled on by rats or the image of Nick Berg being beheaded by terrorists. These are dark times and seem to be getting darker. But.... we still have one another, if we want to still honor and uphold friendship.

Amazed July 4, 2008 at 10:37 a.m.

Lisa (and this note is entirely addressed to you):

Please READ! That means looking at the WORDS AS THEY ARE WRITTEN! You are interpreting quite a lot that is NOT there. As mentioned before, you were ONLY addressed in the first two sentences.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for you as you seem to be taking a whole lot on your shoulders, including things addressed to people in general. You is a general word, personalizing a point to those who are GUILTY. As mentioned, if you are not, then it does not refer to you. I don't think you ever mentioned going to movies in earlier posts so this could NOT have been directed at you! How could it (unless, of course, I am psychic!). My posts, except for the areas people are explicitly addressed, speak to a general issue. I had so moved on from you at that point!

Again, I really believe from your reponses that you are indeed one of those women who get the fifth degree from people(and it seems rightfully so from the irrational and defensive tone of your comments online). By the way, that story about me being in a public space, referred to a 15 minute time period! Of course, the child was also extremely well-behaved. If a child has reached a mental stage where they can sit still for long, then go for it (I didn't think I had to explain this to a parent). If however, a child is not yet ready, that child should not be forced to do so - you know, like some children give up the bottle faster that some etc etc.

I see no apologies for your movies for mommies attack, but I'm not surprised as I've figured out that you are very wrong and strong and quite defensive about a lot of things, including those that don't concern you.

This is the last of my responses to you as I realize that you WANT to think what you think! I will end with what I call my most important point: I have NEVER heard anyone complain about well-behaved children, NEVER!

Eddie July 6, 2008 at 9:51 a.m.

Whoever wrote the last entrie, really needs their brain examined.

Amazed July 7, 2008 at 10:29 a.m.

Eddie, I choose not to take offense by your statement and really look forward to your explanation on why I need my brain examined.

Eddie July 8, 2008 at 12:11 a.m.

Amazed,

Don't you get it? Its Lisa entering my name in because she wants us to have an argument or debate online. She would never put her name to the entry because she can dish it out but she can't take it. Just look at the way she wrote entrie. I have agreed with your opinions thus far.

Give me a break July 8, 2008 at 8:41 p.m.

Eddie, perhaps you have forgotten - a couple of days ago there was an entry between Amazed's & yours that was just gibberish - a series of symbols, and no understandable text. Then came your comment - I am assuming you were commenting on the gibberish comment, not the previous comment posted by Amazed. Since then, the gibberish comment has disappeared (perhaps Toronto Life deleted it, realizing it was an error?). And now you have either forgotten that you commented on a nonsense entry or you are trying to drum up more debate since this forum has recently gone quiet.

I highly doubt that after the gibberish comment Lisa came on posing as you in order to get the debate going - you seem to be the only one trying to start it up again.