Jennie May 8, 2008 at 10:32 a.m.

Nineteen years ago, I walked into the Abercrombie & Fitch store in Toronto. I carried my preemie in a Snugli. The sales clerk, asked me to leave as he did not want the baby to vomit on any of the merchandise. That store did not last very long in TO, and to this day my husband and I have never shopped at any of their stores. I have also experienced inconsiderate parents. My husband and I were dining at Canoe one July evening. Our reservation was for seven thirty. A couple and their one year old were already seated just behind us. By eight o'clock, this baby had had enough and had escalated her whining to outright screaming. We thought that perhaps they were waiting for the bill, but no. The father bounced the baby on his lap which made her scream even louder. I commented to our server that we had arranged for a sitter for our three boys, and we were annoyed that this family did not do the same. The diners around us agreed that the dining experience was ruined. The server replied that they couldn't ban children. I commented that they ban cigars, and perhaps a sign should read that young children are welcome up until six-thirty or seven PM only.

Diane May 8, 2008 at 11:15 a.m.

I personally think that a mother should have the luxury of going out to where ever they want but they should be considerate. If they know they are going to a place with such limited space, carry your child in a sling that goes around you and leave the stroller outside or at the back of the store.

Stephanie May 9, 2008 at 11:25 a.m.

Restaurants most certainly can ban children. One of my favorite restaurants is a fine dining establishment - perfect for a special occasion meal. Their website states that they are an adult corporate restaurant and that children over the age of 8 are allowed in the dining room. I wish more restaurants would do the same.

pukegreen May 12, 2008 at 4:44 p.m.

I don't wish to be an insensitive prick, but the idea that children belong everywhere and that the rest of society should bow down and accommodate simply because somebody decided to have a child rubs me the wrong way. Pregnancy and parenthood are not like diseases, disabilities, races, or creeds because the decision to have a child is just that: a decision. And when one makes that decision, they are assumed to be a mature adult who is prepared to accept the consequences of that decision. One consequence is that you can't hang out in cool bars and restos and play hipster while annoying dozens of other innocent spectators.

I personally do not wish nor plan to have children. While I understand that they are theoretically necessary (though the world does not need any more first world humans, frankly) I expect that when in public places such as restaurants, stores, and public transit, parents will make a reasonable effort to keep their children quiet, non-stinky, and make sure they do not bother others -- and if the child can't do this, the parents I assume that the parents will take responsibility and leave. I often pray that parents will not be so self-absorbed to actually believe that the rest of the world has ceased to exist or is even 1% as fascinated by the gurgles and blurges of their child as they are. My prayers are often not answered.

News flash: I actually don't think your child is very cute. Despite what you might think his/her/its feces and vomit stink. You certainly have a right to reproduce, but I have a right not be burdened by your decision as I go about my life. If you can't deal with that, do what I do: use a condom.

yabadaba May 12, 2008 at 11:07 p.m.

I own a $1200 stroller, have 2 kids under the age of 3 and lived in parkdale! And we lived in parkdale from 1997 - 2006 so it was even pre-cool to live there.

We moved away and still get Toronto Life magazine. We live in a big city now, which is not Bugaboo-obsessed, fortunately.

We have raised our kids to be polite, well mannered, and we respect that everyone in a shop, restaurant or venue of any kind is there to enjoy themselves, not to worry about what kind of chaos my children are going to create.

If my kids act up, which they do on occasion, I leave. If they make a mess, I clean it up. If they scream, I shut them the f*ck up and we leave. Trust me, I don't want to listen to them scream any more than you do.

So it boils down to people just being rude, inconsiderate and insensitive. Like another poster wrote, "get over yourselves". It's not rocket science.

Marley May 13, 2008 at 1:26 p.m.

I think we need to allow for a bigger sense of humour here. I don't think that most parents (including the ones cited in the article) literally think that it's payback that people have to help you out on the transportation system with your stroller. Nor do they think it's a lack of courtesy to continue to get around the city on the TTC when they have a wide stroller (and it ain't easy to navigate our "accessible" transit system with a baby in a stroller).

It is, however, kind of rich that we ignore each others' needs for as long as possible in this city until they cause us some discomfort. We won't give a pregnant woman a seat but we'll bitch and moan when her fussy baby interrupts our solitary reverie on the streetcar.

Kate May 13, 2008 at 4:31 p.m.

I am the first to get annoyed if people allow their kids to act like maniacs in cafes / bars / restaurants - if my children act up when we're out, I ask for the cheque. It's common courtesy.

It is also courtesy to leave strollers outside small cafes & restaurants if the restaurant has high chairs. If you can't do it because you're worried about someone walking off with your $1,200 Bugaboo, do what I do and lock it up like a bike, or get a $10 umbrella stroller for these occasions.

Before we ban small children from cafes & restaurants, can we investigate the idea of banning really loud talkers, people who answer their cell phones in mid meal, people who call waitresses Toots or Honey, or show disrespect in other ways? I would way rather ban every macho loser who would not leave my girlfriends and I in peace to have a drink than the child quietly colouring at the next table over.

Doggy Owner May 14, 2008 at 4:50 p.m.

As a dog owner, and a mom to 2 young children, here is my 2-cents worth...

Dogs deserve park space to run & play in, as do children. But off-leash dogs should be nowhere near playgrounds - parks that have put in fenced in off-leash areas are great, but so many dog owners ruin things for everyone by ignoring off-leash zoning or hours. My dog wouldn't hurt a fly, but I'm not stupid enough to let him wander loose near small children who may be terrified of dogs. By the same token, I'm also not stupid enough to take my small child to a leash free area of the park during leash free hours if they are scared of dogs.

As for the poop residue on grass even after an owner has scooped, that is ridiculous - these same people are at sand-filled playgrounds with their kids that are essentially giant toilets for racoons (whose feces are incredibly disease-filled) and have the nerve to talk about poop residue left on grass by dog poop long gone? Give me a break.

child-free May 14, 2008 at 9:24 p.m.

It isn't the children that are the problem, it's their "adult friends" who are too afraid to correct or discipline them when they act out. Why, it's too damaging to their self esteem and it doesn't encourage individuality!
Bringing a person into this world is an enormous responsibility. One which, quite frankly, should be thought about long and hard, instead fantasizing about Bugaboos and how cute you're going to look with your baby bump showing. If you are going to take on the challenge of raising a child, you MUST accept that you are preparing them to be future adults in society. And with that, you should be expected to train them how to conduct themselves in public. Period.
It makes me chuckle to think that when the accessory--i mean baby grows up and becomes a teenager, how these hipster "parents" will be in for so much fun. All their teachings of being self-centered, rude, and obnoxious will come back to bite them on the butt.

DaveGirl7861 May 16, 2008 at 11:29 a.m.

Respect, common sense and empathy. Period.

Renee May 16, 2008 at 11:42 a.m.

I'm a 39 year old woman, childless by choice, possessing neither the will nor the ego to reproduce. Meh, I'd rather spend my money on travel and shiny baubles. I live in the Beach where confrontations between breeders and non breeders are a daily fact. I have nothing against children per se, but I do object to the sense of entitlement that sometimes seems to arise from having reproduced. I get so very tired of being treated like human refuse by stroller moms with double wide baby pushers blocking the sidewalk and claiming the right of way every the time, thereby limiting mobility for the rest of us. Add a nanny and a Goldy-Doodle to the equation and it gets even worse.

Jan May 16, 2008 at 12:52 p.m.

I read this article and the comments with great interest, and I bristle at what sadly has become far too common in this city - lack of common sense and common courtesy. I am always shocked at those people, childless or otherwise (and I am proudly and happily Childless by Choice) who walk two or three abreast down the sidewalk and will not fall one behind the other to allow an oncoming pedestrian to pass. Like Renee, I too live in the Beach, and have not only had it out with no less than 4 stroller moms coming at me two-by-two and not having any kind of sense to allow me to pass, and then proceeded to hurl obscenities at me when I suggested they do so (okay, I will admit to not being polite and asking them but rather adamantly stating that I wasn't about to move out of their way and into oncoming traffic), but have had to deal with oncoming skateboarders, roller-bladers and cyclists who seem to think it's actually called a "side-ride" rather than sidewalk. And to the "payback" TTC-riding stroller mom, I wish to state that I give up my seat to pregnant women. And the elderly, physically-challenged people, and dare I say? Even to children too young to keep their balance standing on streetcars.

And by the way, Mr. Mills, I don't go into public swimming pools for the very same reason you don't like your child to play in dog parks - kids pee in pools. Ick.

Heather May 18, 2008 at 12:29 a.m.

I just moved to Toronto, to the Danforth area specifically, and I've never lived anywhere where kids and their parents make the rules so much as here. I do find it very nice to see moms and dads engaged with their children, going on weekend outings together, while still at least somewhat preserving their pre-parenthood lives by going out for coffee or shopping in trendy stores. I'm with you - when I have kids I also hope to resist that push to move to the suburbs.

However, like many of the others who have commented here, I have already come to the conclusion that the biggest problem is those huge strollers that parents seem entitled to push around. Honestly, your babies and toddlers are not that big and so they do not need such big strollers. Perhaps those strollers are more useful for brisk walks or jogs on side streets than on the main streets of the neighbourhood. Like others have said, mutual respect is best for all of us.

And, about young families on the TTC, as someone who spends 2 hours every weekday using the TTC, I am totally fine with seeing children and babies on the TTC. Some people cannot afford other methods of transportation, or think that the bus or subway would be easier than driving through congested traffic and finding a place to park downtown. However, as everyone taking the TTC should do, young families need to be mindful of others and try to think 'one step ahead' to keep everyone else moving as best as possible.

Have manners disappeared? May 19, 2008 at 12:01 a.m.

Jan - I don't think the issue you faced is an issue of stroller mentality or mom mentality, I think it's an issue of ignorant self-absorbed people, who are literally everywhere (with and without kids). I have had to push my baby's stroller into the road to get past a group of women gabbing so intently with each other, standing 4 abreast on the sidewalk, or to get around a group of people who have run into each other on the sidewalk and decided to take up the entire sidewalk, not moving when others approach. I've also encountered the stroller moms side by side. Really there is no difference as to whether they're pushing a stroller or just out walking with friends - it's plain rude to take up the entire sidewalk, but I think people notice bad manners way more in mommies, and have a harder time brushing it off than they do in others.

Andrea May 19, 2008 at 12:44 a.m.

this arguement isnt even worth this.
Theres bad people and good people..
kids have nothing to do with it.
making blanket bans is ridiculous.just like a kids can be annoying and a parent should address it, there are MANY Other annoying people like drooly men...shall we ban all men now or just the ones who create problems

and all the complainers here need to really find some real picket signs that matter and stop thinking is even an issue.

Jason May 20, 2008 at 12:19 p.m.

I run the risk of sounding like our suburban parents when I say that my generation takes no responsibility for its actions (by de facto their children’s actions) but in an age where a sense of entitlement seems to be issued along with a birth certificate, I find it hard to argue against that sentiment. I believe that Katrina Onstad’s article speaks to the larger issue of the loss of civility in Toronto, going beyond parents with mega-sized strollers. As a born and bred Torontonian I have watched over the years as the culture of “celebrate me” has devolved into some mutated version of self-righteousness, summed perfectly by the attitude of Ms.Goldman taking revenge on her fellow citizens for the bad manners of a few transit riders lacking in civility. Too bad she doesn’t see the connecting irony of her sense of entitlement and what she is perpetuating with her behaviour. Anyway, what makes Onstad’s article most relevant in all this, is that today’s parents have the chance to raise a generation that takes responsibility for its behaviour – but it has to begin with parents acting like parents and not treating childrearing as some creative arts class.

P.S. Yes, your children’s future taxes will pay for my old age security pension but my current taxes are allowing your son or daughter to grow up in one of the most progressive, prosperous and “tolerant” cities in the world – for both parents and singletons alike.

Cidalia May 20, 2008 at 3:26 p.m.

What shocked me the most about the article were the quotes from the parents, especially the quote from Adina about payback on the TTC. I would be ashamed to see that comment in print with my name on it! Unfortunately I see this type of attitude all the time at my work - I work for an airline. Parents come to the airport with huge strollers and then are shocked they can't bring them on board! How big did you think the aisles were anyways? Then they have mutiple carry on bags - one for diapers, one for food, one for toys, one for clothes, one for pillows and blankets...it just boggles my mind, do kids really need all that stuff everytime they go out? If you have a child and you go out anywhere in public - SIMPLIFY! Don't expect everyone around you to bow down in servitude because you brought all this crap with you. We all have jobs to do, places to go and can't bend over backwards to accomodate parents who travel with unreasonable amounts of baggage or huge strollers. Get rid of 2/3 of that stuff and your trip will be much easier!

Renee May 20, 2008 at 10:45 p.m.

Cidalia - I was on a flight once from Calgary to Montreal... The plane had barely reached cruising altitude when a woman in my row plopped her baby flat out on its back in the aisle, where everyone walks, and proceeded to start changing a rather foul diaper. I was in shock, barely even to fathom that this was actually happening. Isn't that what bathrooms are for? I was absolutely horrified, unable to comprehend why this woman thought everyone would be okay with smelling her offspring's feces in such a confined space. But before I could do or say anything, along came a very gay male flight attendant who was equally horrified. Wow... the talking-to mom got was everything I wanted to say, but way better, lol.

Mike May 21, 2008 at 11 a.m.

When did giving birth get chalked up to being an achievement that merited some sense of entitlement? Isn’t that more or less like giving yourself a pat on the back before getting the job done? Giving birth (or impregnating someone) is not some sort of successful accomplishment. However, spending 20 years raising a child into an adult who is considerate of others and takes responsibility for his or her actions is worthy of all praise and more. A few people seem to celebrate the fact they are parents instead of actually focusing on being a parent. A real sense of entitlement comes from actually having accomplished something, such as raising a child to have a sense of respect for the world and people around them.

new mom May 21, 2008 at 7:05 p.m.

I'm a new mom. It is disturbing for me to read the comments from the anti-baby side. I don't understand where all the anger and agression came from. Every person who posted was a baby at one time. Every baby was introduced to public space by a caregiver. Entering public space is a necessity, not a priveledge or entitlement. Keeping a baby locked indoors all day so as not to inconvenience the anti-baby public is cruel and insensitive.

It would be considered discrimination to ban the elderly, or ask them to leave an establishment. Why is it acceptable to consider children unwelcome in public space?

I was afraid for my safety when pregnant. Driving on Toronto roads was hazardous, I was rear-ended by a drunken careless driver. Riding the TTC was a nighmare. rarely did someone offer up their seat to me...even when in the last-trimester.

Now with a baby, I am very concious of our impact on others when we venture out into the world. I bought a small umbrella stroller, and I pause on the street to let people pass. When I know I'm going into a space that isn't stroller friendly (like a small store, or a non-wheelchair accessible subway stop) I will bring my baby carrier. However, carrying a 20LB baby all day is really hard on my back. On occasion I'll take the stroller on the TTC(especially in a snow or rain storm). People push to get past me when entering or exiting the bus or subway. Very rarely will someone help me up or down stairs. Riding the escalator is nerve-wracking. People push and bump into me. I've almost fallen trying to get off the escalator.

You cannot control the cries of an infant. They cry if they are bored, or lonely or hungry or sleepy. My guy cries all the time. If I exited public space everytime my kid made a noise....I'd never go anywhere. We try to visit only baby friendly establishments. Many places we used to go to when childless are off limits to us now.

I remember my last trip to Italy. Multi-generational families would go out at night to restaurants, and walk through the streets. I think it is unfortunate that Toronto is not as child-friendly as Rome.

Jan May 21, 2008 at 9:12 p.m.

To New Mom, I say this - when reading the commentary here, I don't think anybody is "anti-baby". I think the point any of us are trying to get across is being a responsible, courteous parent, which it appears you are trying to do. I thank you for that and commend your efforts. Keep it up and lead by example. We should all strive to do the same. What's that oft-used quote from that Book that's supposed to be the basis for Western civilization and its laws - "do unto others"? Show respect and you will get it in return.

JT May 21, 2008 at 9:24 p.m.

As a woman who has a 2 year-old and lives in the west end, I haven't experienced much of this anti-baby sentiment myself. But then I would never dream of taking my toddler to a place like Canoe (weekend breakfast at a diner is more our speed these days). The people I find myself pushing strollers with normally make the effort to fall back to single file if someone is trying to get by on the sidewalk, and I find loads of perfect strangers offer to hold doors open to shops & so on.

I will say that the TTC is not very accessible. I don't find the escalators to be safe with a stroller so that leaves me to the stations with elevators, which are few & far between. Fortunately we live one station away from an accessible elevator-equipped station, so it's not too far to walk to, but lots of other people aren't so lucky. And it certainly is best to be able to restrain a rambunctious toddler in a stroller in places like subway stations.

I do have a beef about being pregnant & not having seats offered on the TTC. When I was pregnant & taking the subway to work every day in peak rush hour, I often had a seat offered to me during my second trimester (almost exclusively by women - only twice in my entire pregnancy did a man offer me his seat). Then inexplicably, in my last few months of pregnancy, people stopped offering me seats. There I was, obviously pregnant in my massiveness (carrying a 10-lb baby during the spring/summer so no winter coat to disguise the pregnancy), with feet swollen up like balloons and so much back & hip pain from the pregnancy that I could only walk in little shuffles, and not a person on the train would offer me a seat. Not getting a seat on the way into work meant that I felt sick and exhausted the entire rest of the work day afterwards. Ultimately I had to use vacation time to come into work an hour late & leave an hour early each day so that I could miss rush hour & be assured of getting a seat, and then I wound up starting my mat leave earlier than I had planned, precisely because of this issue. For all those people who think that getting through pregnancy is no big accomplishment, I assure you that just because it's a "natural process" does not mean it's easy. So keep in mind while sitting there in your subway seat with your earphones in & your eyes on your Metro newspaper & pretending to ignore the huge pregnant women standing right in front of you - morning sickness is actually better termed "all day sickness" and I know lots of people who had it the whole 9 months of their pregnancy & often puked in subway stations after being crammed into a hot smelly subway car - so if you can't offer a seat to the pregnant woman standing in front of you out of courtesy, do it to avoid being puked on.

Response to "new mom" May 22, 2008 at 9:05 a.m.

I don't think any of the comments are "anti-baby" but it is exactly this perception by new moms that upsets me. If you're not one of them, you must be against them. The looks I get when I respond to a mom that I do not intend on breeding! I'm happy for you but, please realize, that there are others who do not share your same ideals.
The fact remains, we live in a big city getting increasingly bigger. There are inconsiderate people everywhere - especially the TTC. We all get pushed and shoved. Seniors and pregnant women are not offered seats. It's unfortunate that everyone can't be more courteous to each other. Sometimes, however, the person with their headphones on reading the paper is actually reading the paper. People don't just notice you because you're pregnant. Get over yourself. You don't deserve special treatmed just because you're pregnant. It was a choice you made to have a child. You knew there would be sacrifices. But, it was your choice - not the rest of ours. Yes, it would be courteous to give you a seat. But, I've given up expecting courtesy.
I understand your baby will cry. I certainly don't expect you to leave the park, the mall or any other large public space. But, I do expect you to leave the tiny restaurant where I'm having brunch. Not if your baby is fussing (because I understand there's a difference) but, if you're baby is screaming his poor little heart out and won't stop. I also expect you to keep your older child in line and not let him/her run all over the restaurant/cafe/bookstore/video store - he's your responsibility, keep him close to you.
It's the increasingly common higher-than-thou sentiments of new city parents that is the problem - not their children.
And, as an italian myself, I'm sure you'd bristle at the way my italian parents raised me - some light corporal punishment, espressos in the morning and red wine with dinner were my youth. But, when I went out with them to friend's homes, or church or restaurants, they taught me to sit still. All I needed was to get "the look" that told me I'd be punished once we got home. And, I believed them.

KDT May 22, 2008 at 12:07 p.m.

"The looks I get when I respond to a mom that I do not intend on breeding!"

Perhaps consider for a moment that you've just casually slapped that mom with a term usually reserved for reproducing animals, and then you might begin to understand the nature of those "looks".

Response to KDT May 22, 2008 at 12:39 p.m.

The term is that "breeding". Thanks for illustrating the point - get over yourself.

Re: Breeding May 22, 2008 at 12:57 p.m.

... and humans reproduce through immaculate conception? Humans are essentially naked apes with indoor plumbing. Breeding is what it's called. Get over yourself, giving birth isn't a divine act.

Andrea May 22, 2008 at 4:14 p.m.

To the people who say this isnt anti baby then why bring up babies at all..
If its anti bad manners then focus on the issue at hand because most of the comments here scream entitlement at having to not be inconvenienced by children at all.
Get a grip and start focusing your energy on some postiive stuff and Im sure your experience of people will change.
Im so amused by the negativity of these people who actually think pushing by a stroller or listening to a baby cry is a problem. Clearly we are all spoiled if we think these things are problems. You so called adults ( with no children ) are all a bunch of whiners yourself. If you cant behave and act civilized who can? Im always amazed at what North Americans find to complain about. WOW!

sandymay May 23, 2008 at 11:31 a.m.

My son started to dine out at 3 months old and we became regulars at the Epicure Cafe's upstairs dining room on Queen West. As he grew so did the high chair supplied by the restaurant and we were always welcome. As we departed one evening, after he had eaten and sat quietly for two hours, the other patrons in the room stood up and applauded us for taking part in the dining experience. Good mom, Good baby. By the way, we know when to leave.

Margaret May 23, 2008 at 3:11 p.m.

I know that no society's etiquette rules are stagnant and everyone needs to get with the times, but sometimes I do wish that parents of very young children would consider calling a babysitter a little more often. Being out for dinner used to be an enjoyable, adult experience. Part of the additional cost of treating oneself to a night out was the in-built cost of child care so you could pretend to be a carefree non-parent again for a night.

This article intelligently presented the "rejuvenile" theory, but skipped what I think is a bigger issue with young parents today: their inability to be separated from their children without guilt and anxiety. You aren't a bad parent if you leave your child with a trusted person for one night. You are however, an inconsiderate fellow-citizen to subject adult diners to the understandable antics of small kids in what is, to them, a stuffy and dull environment.

Cooper May 23, 2008 at 3:42 p.m.

Have you ever noticed how dressed up the mom's are at the park? I'm not saying being a mother means wearing your pajamas to the park, but come on. It's not a fashion show.

http://bestparentever.com/2008/05/19/34-...

Susan May 23, 2008 at 4:03 p.m.

I am a mother currently on maternity leave and truly x love the experience of motherhood in the City. Sure, it disapoints me when people see me struggling to enter a place with a stroller and don't offer to hold the door open for me, but I manage. When I was 9 months pregnant and on my way into work, I had an old person offer his seat to me on the street car. What does that say about our society? It says that some people just have no class. I would, however, like to take the opportunity to THANK all of the nice, considerate and polite people in the City because there are many good people out there. Thank you!

Monika May 26, 2008 at 3:41 p.m.

I would like to add, as a proud new mom of a young baby who also has two dogs - get over yourselves! I get harrassed both by self-entitled parents and by self-entitled dog owners who have little consideration for any one else.

To all the childles people - think where you would be now if your parents were forced to live under some rock, not able to co-exist with the rest of the world. You may choose to be childless, but remember that you wouldn't even exist now if this society was not child-friendly.

I also agree that dogs need a free space to run. My dogs are well behaved but I also respect the fact that many parents are weary of dogs so I keep my dogs on-leash around young kids - for the sake of my dogs and the other children. I get more annoyed by parents who let their kids approach my dogs and I HAVE TO BE THE ONE to tell them how to approach dogs in a way that doesn't stress them out so that they do not bark and be scared enough to bite a child. If you let your kids run and scream towards dogs, don't be suprised that the dog will get scared and start barking or worse, be provoked to bite. Children should not be touching strange dogs to them without the owner's consent, as a dog owner knows his/her dog the best and only the dog owner knows if his/her dog will be ok around your kids, and then not always. It is better to play it safe and not let your child touch strange dogs.

And for the record, why shouldn't I treat my dogs like they are a part of my family, they are a part of my family. Yes many childless people treat their dogs as children and why shouldn't they? Dogs are wonderful companions. I wish more families with children didn't treat their pets like vermin just because they now all of a suddan had a baby. Kids and dogs (or other pets) can co-exist quite healthily and happily.

Jade May 26, 2008 at 3:50 p.m.

This is for the person who commented on changing a diaper in the middle of an isle. Get over it. The poop is not going to get everwhere. Woudl you like to put your butt directly on a dirty, peed on airplane toilet? I think not, so don't expect that a parent would want to place their baby on the floor of a dirty airplane bathroom.

I certainly hope the mother placed a portable changing pad under her baby.

I would have sent a complaint directly to the airline manager for that rude flight attendant's attitude. Shame on him! As far as I know, airplane bathrooms are far too small to accomodate a changing table.

Childless people - you really are far grosser than any child could ever dream of being. You leave nasty condoms in parks, you leave puke on the street when you leave bars, you belch and fart and release nasty body odour. My baby is far more pristine and cleaner than you could ever hope of being. As for peeing in the pool, I'd take swimming in any baby's pee over swimming in a pool full of a nasty adult fart anyday.

Lianne May 26, 2008 at 4:02 p.m.

Margaret: That is an incredibly uneducated comment. Why do you think so many people in our society are so anti-baby, anti-family now? Because they grew up avoidantly attached, because we pride ourselves on one night stands and and not getting too involved with others, because we are an alienated and isolated society and that is very sad. I applaud parents who do not leave their young babies alone - young babies belong with their parents not with some babysitter who is not vested in their best interests.

I suggest you educate yourself on the matter, perhaps pick up a copy of Robert Karen's "Becoming Attached: First relationships and how they shape our ability to love" -
most of these comments are not only anti-baby but clearly signs of an alineated and avoidantly society!

Missing Manners May 27, 2008 at 6:55 p.m.

I'll probably set off a firestorm, but I moved from Toronto to Atlanta 13 years ago, and am constantly shocked at the lack of manners every time I come North. No Southerner -- man or woman -- would make a pregnant bus rider stand. Moms-to-be even have their own parking spaces right next to the handicapped ones. And that courtesy cuts both ways. I've never seen babies in the Atlanta equivalent of "Canoe".

Lucy May 28, 2008 at 3:05 a.m.

When is the next category posting?

http://bestparentever.com

Adina May 28, 2008 at 11:05 a.m.

Someone told me that my quote was setting the forums on fire!

I wasn't sure whether to weigh in, but I couldn't resist. I wanted to say that I was being cheeky and funny, but I guess the tone didn't translate. It's too bad, but I am not "ashamed" and I figure that this kind of negative interpretation is what comes from allowing yourself to be a subject.

My quote, which was truncated, ended: "Not that I'm not a vengeful person...That would be a terrible thing to teach your child!"

Not sure if that end bit would've made the cheeky tone any clearer.

At any rate, I saw this as a great, funny article with an intent to provoke controversy, but if anyone would like me to clarify:

1) No, I don't want to induce discomfort and pain on my fellow TTC passengers. Nor is my continued use of public transit with a child "payback".

2) RE: the honkin' stroller: We don't have a car (although now we have a baby bike seat!), and this winter I could not have made it through the snow with a discreet umbrella stroller. Wide, big-wheeled strollers are not always a fashion statement (although they are certainly priced like one). They are necessary for getting around. Also - babies can't sit (or sleep) in umbrella strollers until they are a few months old.

3)It *is* cumbersome and occasionally embarassing to take up so much space in public. When your baby starts crying at a restaurant, you don't puff up with a sense of self righteousness - you want to disappear. It would be great if people were more easygoing about having children in their midst, but that's not always the case, so we are trying to figure out a balance.

While the parents I know don't feel it's our right to take over fine-dining establishments, we also don't want to be relegated to the land of triptych menus and jalapeno poppers.

I agree with the former commenter: It's not about parents, children, or dog owners. It's just comes down to respecting one another and letting people live their lives.

Childless and lovin' it May 28, 2008 at 12:39 p.m.

Jade, your comments reinforced my belief that there really ought to be a screening process before being allowed to breed. I can't believe your comments regarding childless people being responsible for discarded condoms, vomit, belches and flatulence. Mind-numbing...

LMAO May 28, 2008 at 1:05 p.m.

Jade's comments are puerile at best. Rather apropo in a baby forum.

Alex May 28, 2008 at 8:09 p.m.

We just experienced our first face to face "baby discrimination" as first time parents living in the downtown core.

Over the past 9 months since our baby was born, I have gotten used to calling restaurants and the like ahead of time to see if they have high chairs or can accomodate children. It's been an eye opening experience at the lack of places that do.

But on to the story. An old friend of mine had flown in from London, England for the week and myself and a group of other mutual friends wanted to meet up at the Black Bull Tavern. Whenever he was on town we had always met up there before as it's a place that can accomodate a larger group of people on their patio. I asked my husband to join us after work.

It was/is Wednesday afternoon at 4:30 pm.

We hadn't been there for a mere 5 minutes and parked our umbrella (read: small and foldable) stroller and took our baby out to sit on my husband's lap, when the waitress came over to our table to inform my husband and myself that babies weren't permitted on the patio because it was their policy was to not have children around smokers. But if we wanted to stay we could go indoors where there was no smoking.

Now we're not ignorant parents. Our friends had selected our table to be near the railing as to be away from other patrons, both for more space to accomodate everyone and we were nowhere near smokers sitting down. As well, no one at our table was a smoker. We were also outside where there was air flow. And if our baby had been even remotely disruptive we know well enough when to leave as we wouldn't want to disrupt the other patrons.

We were so floored at the request to remove our baby from the premises that I sincerely regret not causing a bigger issue with the staff. Instead my husband who had hoped to sit on the patio and join us for a half hour had to take our baby home and our friend who was visiting who hadn't yet met our 9 month old was disappointed.

What infuriates me is that is that they choose patrons who smoke to stay there and not parents with babies. I can only assume while they think the intent of their policy is good, it's painfully obvious that it really has nothing to do with the smoking as anyone in the area could have seen that was not the case. It was more about the fact that a baby stroller and a baby on the patio was not a good image for Black Bull to who caters to a younger crowd of patrons.

That and no where on their patio policy that is engraved in stone on the side of their building, did it read "No Babies" next to the Shirt and Shoes Required and so on.

The icing on the cake was that after my husband left I witnessed a mom come in and with her was her young toddler. And no one asked her to leave. I guess there's an age limit policy too that isn't written.

Needless to say it's the last time I'll be going there.

Missy May 29, 2008 at 5:03 p.m.

To Alex: are you serious?

So you're criticizing smokers at a FULLY OUTDOOR BAR PATIO but it's ok to bring a BABY into a bar?

You've got to be kidding me.

marley May 30, 2008 at 10:59 a.m.

Missy - I don't think she was criticizing smokers, but the staff who were dictating who could sit on the patio (and who also assumed she couldn't decide whether to leave if the area got too smokey).

Does anyone know if having children on your smoke-friendly patio makes the owner vulnerable to legal action?

marley May 30, 2008 at 3:08 p.m.

If I might add - I find it pretty funny how a big issue here is how many shrill opinions there or on How To Raise A Child. That could be an article on its own.

No one warns you about this when you are having a kid how everyone and his bachelor uncle thinks they have a monopoly on child-rearing wisdom.

Alex May 30, 2008 at 4:27 p.m.

Missy - Please explain to me the difference to me the difference between standing on the North East corner of Soho and Queen Street and the North West corner of Soho and Queen Street. This is the difference. One is a hipster outdoor patio with an image to uphold and the other is simply a parking lot. If you think anyone would be exposed to more smoke and pollution on an outdoor patio as opposed to simply standing on any street corner in this city with smokers and pollution, it's all the same.

The issue was we weren't fitting into the mold that that establishment is trying to portray. Instead they wanted us to sit inside where the doors to the outside smoking patio were open to, and you're trying to tell me that the smoke say going inside wouldn't be more bothersome?

It was 4:30 pm in the afternoon on Wednesday and it's a patio in a social meeting place. The bar is inside where they wanted us to sit.

JD June 2, 2008 at 12:21 p.m.

Hey Alex, your story is truly a sad tale of what Toronto has become. I remember when the Black Bull was actually a truly hip and cool place (circa 1983) where everyone was welcome. Young, old, kids and dogs. Parents were actually left to make their own decisions if their children should be on the patio and laughing children (in already loud environment) didn’t cramp anyone’s style. Perhaps I’m just an old dinosaur who remembers a time when restaurants and bars were not yet politicized into fundamentalist hotbeds of coolness that excluded and ostracized people. Anyone remember John Lydon’s old adage? If you are making an effort to be cool, you’re not.

Tale of 3 strollers... June 2, 2008 at 11:05 p.m.

I honestly think the issues people have with big SUV type strollers have less to do with the space they take up, than resentment on the "indulgence" of them. Which leads me to wonder why people care so much what other people spend their money on.

When my first son was born 5 years ago, we bought a Graco travel system (this was before strollers were trendy). That Graco had zero suspension when I took my dog for walks on trails, and I started to worry about the baby shaking around like that, so we eventually bought a big all-terrain air-filled-tire big honking SUV type stroller, that is a beautiful ride even over bumpy trails. Funnily enough, both strollers are the same width from wheel to wheel, but the SUV-type one looks much bigger because it's tires are so much chunkier, and the seat is so much bigger. But the only time we've ever had dirty-stroller-looks is in the fancy one - for some reason people didn't resent the Graco shaken-baby-inducing-stroller, even though it was exactly the same width.

Also, we sometimes put both kids in the double bike trailer to get somewhere, then detach the trailer when we're there & use it as a stroller. Even though that is twice the width of our other strollers, people LOVE the bike trailer. They are constantly ooing over it and saying what fun it looks to ride in. No one says that about our pricey stroller, even though it truly does seem to be the nicest ride.

I think it's because people resent the indulgence of expensive strollers more than they do the size they take up.

marley June 3, 2008 at 1:22 p.m.

Great observation, "Tale"...It probably is a judgement of conspicuous consumption.

And never mind that less than six months of car insurance payments buys you one of those high-end, well-engineered strollers that you can push through trails and snow.

The Graco or the Peg Perego et al are heavy to hoist onto streetcars and useless on anything other than clean pavement.

Kim June 4, 2008 at 11:17 a.m.

All of the comments about co-existing are on the money. People need to drop the me, me thing. Children and pets can bring so much to our lives, but poop, noise and equipment need to be dealt with discreetly. With my first child, we could go anywhere, and parenting was SO easy (other parents couldn't be doing it right!). Child #2 was a different story (same toys, same food, same parents!). Arrgghh!! People gave me plenty of looks and unwanted advice, even in the grocery store. Needless to say, our activities changed, but were not bound to the house - this is Toronto! Louie, owner of the Avenue Rd. Coffee Shop has seen our kids grow into great teenagers from babies, but there was a time we wouldn't even go there, cuz of the unruly toddler! High end restaurants were not for the kids, major shopping done tag-team, ALONE. Restaurant-going was minimal and an early hour, at certain ages, but that was for a short time, not forever! I bolted from many an establishment and so should others. As for leaving them with babysitters: children who see parents as having a life, and interests/hobbies outside the family, actually are brighter and more independent (read some more books Lianne). We had SO much great family time (not always easy, trendy or perfect) and still do with our son & daughter, who are both happy and considerate 'downtowners'.

david June 6, 2008 at 3:54 p.m.

I was interviewed and quoted in the article (regarding dogs in parks) and I have to say that my words were printed out of context.

Adina June 7, 2008 at 10:32 a.m.

I hear ya, David ;)
I think that what people don't realize when they react these quotes (or quotes in any piece of journalism) is that they were acquired without us fully grasping the tone and context of the article.

Ah well, we live in a literal world and at least provided people delicious opportunities for righteous indignation.

Jason June 9, 2008 at 2:40 p.m.

Adina, thank you, thank you, thank you, for saying it all by saying “at least provided people delicious opportunities for righteous indignation.” Reading through the comments, I was starting to wonder whether some people actually had issues with urban parents and hipsters or whether they had issues with the fact that not everyone is living they way they think is best.

If Toronto had a “national sport”, self-righteous indignation would be it – worthy of an Olympic gold.

PAT June 12, 2008 at 9:38 p.m.

I have twins that are now 3 years of age and had a honkin big SUV type stroller as I walked mostly everywhere and was without a car. I suffered through rude comments from rude TTC staff along with a rude Postal worker who commented to on two different occasions as he walked to work " why don't you get the big one next time." I respect my fellow citzens rights , why can't I be respected for my choice to have children and have any damn stroller I want !

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 4:02 p.m.

Andrea: I'm with you! Great points!

Margaret: Ever think some people don't know any babsitters, or can't afford them? Our babysitter costs $10 an hour. It costs $100 for dinner and a movie these days. The result is my hubby and I barely go out which is fine, but I'm just saying... sometimes the anxiety has nothing to do it. People who have family around to help are lucky.

BTW, I agree with new mom. And I think that you can't really imagine what having a child is like (and why you might need a certain stroller) until you've been a parent.

Lisa June 13, 2008 at 4:07 p.m.

Adina:

Yup. agree with all your points. I actually had a large stroller to get through the snow as well. Given that I gave birth in January, I was so thankful. And as I mentioned elsewhere, I was terrified to use the sling, because it was always so icy out. I figured my little guy was safer in the stroller!

Diana June 14, 2008 at 4:35 p.m.

Interesting to think of the parallel to Atwood's great classic, "The Handmaid's Tale." Children, in Canadian society, are more difficult to have now that they were in the past (fewer stable relationships, cost of raising children is higher, more reproductive challenges). It seems to be suggested by the whole discussion that there are haves and have nots when it comes to offspring and the related entitlements. Are those that can and do more prized by society that those that can't or don't? I would suggest that the animosity comes not so much from the everyday annoyances but rather from the big question, "Do I still matter if I am not someone's mom or dad?"

Max June 15, 2008 at 2:09 p.m.

Adina and David, looks like you both just got a free (if somewhat public) lesson in media training: understanding the point of view of the article is critical to avoid misrepresentation. I might argue that some of the indignation was right, and not righteous, however, It's funny though: as I write this from the patio at the Drake, there's a hilarious two year old wandering around (supervised) making friends wherever he goes. No one in their right mind should be anti-baby or toddler, nd while this guy isn't sitting still and not making sound, he's wonderful and totally welcome and appreciated here.So in general, I think people are cool with it. The issue is, if he starts to act up a bit, can people be cool about it? And if he starts to act up more than a bit, will the parents be cool about it and leave with him if that's appropriate?

Mommy June 15, 2008 at 3:51 p.m.

Something really wrong with society in TO. People are ignorant and evil. General population in TO full of fascist ideas against children which is against nature and clearly shows luck of any normal humane instincts. All above mentioned facts shows wide spread degradation. Yes ,it is way better to be childless selfish egocentric self centered gay person walking chubby doggy in the park - this is the most popular torontonian type now days. And please don't argue - it is bare truth you can do nothing about. There are way more doggies than babies in the parks of this city. There are way more old, sick , all kind of adult people than babies on TTC. Usually in the dining "facility" you cant hear your child because it is full of loud noise coming from adults. Just couple of days ago saw those movie about evil witches who hated children and for whom children are stinky etc. Does it mean that we live in the city full of witches ? :-)) This is not normal for normal women or men to hate or be disgusted of children. This progressive western society is going to the dead end where elder people will dominate and economy will collapse. You should go to Rome or to any other European city - learn how to be a normal human being. And just want to say couple of words to that parent who teach they kids to be a zombie and prevents them to experience normal childhood , prevent them from normal play on the playground, from interactions with other kids - this is very sad, I barely can stand it and probably will go to Europe one day. I cant see those poor small "adults" on the streets and playgrounds who might push my 19 month old away saying to him - get out of me. This society full of aggressive gay people, who spreading they gay ideology around, poisoning young minds. This society is way too full of all kinds of pedophiles and they never punished as they should be. This is very sad now days to live in GTA. What is wrong with you people ??? Personally I don't want my son to grow up here.

Adina June 18, 2008 at 2:52 p.m.

@Max -I would argue that it's not possible to anticipate the point of view of the article as it is being written - I doubt even Katrina knew precisely how "us and them" it would pan when she was writing it (nota bene: I was not interviewed by Katrina O for my quote).

That said, I am not upset, but this was a weird (if interesting) experience and I will probably think harder before participating in something like this again.

Alec June 20, 2008 at 5:21 p.m.

I'm wondering if there'll be a "Dog Wars" article to follow this one up . . . now don't get me wrong, I love dogs. But it seems to me (based on the parks near me on Danforth at least) that the off-leash areas are getting bigger and more common (and more poop-saturated) at the expense of people-friendly space. Where the off-leash areas are fenced, like at Ashbridges Bay, I have absolutely no problem with the dogs having their space. Where they're not, the off-leash basically takes over the whole park . . . which means that there's nothing but the small, sun-blasted, litter strewn playground for me and my kid.

There was a mom who commented above that dogs have just as much right to the parks as kids do . . . I'm afraid I have to disagree with this one. I'm actually pretty apalled with the frequency of comments here that seem to equate dog-parenting to kid-parenting. It just ain't the same thing baby . . . and not only by virtue of the fact that a generation of dogs won't (hopefully) be running the country when the parental generation are relying on walkers and wheelchairs.

shaking my head June 25, 2008 at 1:16 p.m.

I think Diana has raised an excellent point re: comparison to Atwood's "A Handmaid's Tale". Even in my late 40s, I'm still amazed at how many people are incredulous at the fact that I've never had children, nor wanted or could afford to, and then brush me off as some kind of "unnatural" woman! Puh-leeez!!!

And to "Mommy", who is spewing such ridiculous stereotypes against the gay population, I can only say that the higher-evolved people in the GTA would be quite grateful if you and "your kind" were to leave the city. I wouldn't want any of my friends' or relatives' children exposed to the narrow-minded bigotry exhibited by such "evil witches" as yourself.

BlueBerry Pick'n June 25, 2008 at 2:14 p.m.

I live in the Beach.

Over the last decade plus, I've watched my neighbourhood devolve from a socially cooperative, organic place with room for everyone & everyone's values (& I understand it was even better before I got here)
...to taking *incredible* verbal abuse & physical intimidation from self-important 'StrollerNazis'

More than once, I've had them *ride* a gritty stroller wheel up my Achilles tendon because **I'm a MOTHER & I can't take the STRESS! get out of my WAY, NOW! I used to have a big management job & now I change DIAPERS!" More than once, I've felt someone USE THEIR CHILD & STROLLER as a BATTERING RAM on crowded streets or stores

I've heard parents shriek that "dogs & children don't belong together!! simply because their child stood on a corner next to a leashed dog & they LOOKED at one another with joyful curiosity
I've had women SLAM their stroller into my kneecap on the streetcar because *they* were determined to haul more 'essential' crap than Norman Invasion
I've also seen children who *should have been walking several years previous* who are chauffeured around in massive strollers like little rajas on an elephant-born tiger hunt
I've watched people get owly & irritable because they don't feel they're 'respected enough' without offering any overt or physical *social grace* or genuine community politeness to those 'who contribute to their 'out of the house experience'
I've watched someone RUN OVER MY DOG'S TAIL with a stroller & then, tell me they *didn't* after the dog yelped, jumped out of the way & politely licked her tail with a reproachful glance of 'what the hell is wrong with you?'
I've watched people 'offer up their opinions as definitive facts & laws' as if embodiment of every Ugly American media role model is the height of social fashion. If its sarcastic, demanding or bitchy? apparently, its the only way to interact with those you encounter while frantically panting for the next 'sub-standard' moment

Locals who work & live here? have begun avoiding *shopping or socializing or even walking* in our neighbourhood on weekends because of the folks who have turned the area into an urban bedroom community. WHY? because of the incredible 'screw you & your little dog, too!' attitude.

Why do we think StrollerNazis are viscious little prima donnas?
well, we didn't come to this conclusion for the *drama* of it, they put it out there all on their own with BAD MANNERS

What is wrong?

GEE, maybe its that nobody has any desire to be social or communal, but they get their kicks making demands, whinging & passing definitive judgement on everyone unfortunate enough to be in their path. They moved here because it was 'warm & quaint' then promptly decided it wasn't SLICK or SERVILE enough to suit their never-satisfied demands or complaints

am I disgusted? yes.
do I believe my community as eroded into a 'consumer consumption' experience?
YES.

Lisa June 27, 2008 at 9:27 a.m.

Blue Berry Pick'n: you could always move. BTW, there are selfish parents out there, just like there are bad dog owners and neighbours.

shaking my head June 27, 2008 at 12:46 p.m.

BlueBerry Pick'n - you have so eloquently stated what so many of us Beachers have been politely biting their tongues about for so long. Hurrah to you!! Now if only it hadn't fallen on deaf (see Lisa's comment) ears ... Ah, the curse of the intelligentsia...

Lisa July 2, 2008 at 12:04 p.m.

shaking my head: I have a child in a stroller. I don't hog the sidewalks in the beach. In fact, I pretty much avoid the beach in summer (although I live a 10 minute walk from Queen St)because it is so insane. Not just the strollers, but the dog owners, the slow-walking tourists etc. That's why I don't want to live in the beach. My point was, if you can't take the crowds, perhaps you shouldn't either. My point was there are selfish people with strollers, just like there are selfish people of all walks of life. I think the kids who spraypaint graffiti are pretty selfish too, not to mention behaving in an illegal manner. I think the people who let their dogs roam offleash on the boardwalk when they aren't trained perfectly are selfish. I think people who walk on the bikepath are annoying. I could go on and on. The point is you shouldn't paint a whole group of people with one brush.